What's the difference between Samadhi and Jhana?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
Kenshou
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Re: What's the difference between Samadhi and Jhana?

Post by Kenshou » Fri Jul 09, 2010 1:53 am

That's one of those questions you aren't going to get a conclusive answer to. There are as many different ideas about what constitutes actual samadhi or jhana as there are people on this forum, and for every person saying they can, they'll be someone saying that they're probably wrong. It's just one of those tricky subjects. :juggling: Go read alotta suttas and do alotta sitting and decide for yourself.

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jcsuperstar
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Re: What's the difference between Samadhi and Jhana?

Post by jcsuperstar » Fri Jul 09, 2010 3:32 am

I'm not sure there is really anyone who really thinks jhana cant be attained, i think the argument is against those who think they can meditate 20mins or so a day while living a life not bound by the precepts and still achieve jhana. there is a huge difference. this is why "vipassana" meditation is pushed so much, you can see things as they are right now, there is no need to sit for hours a day etc. insight cant be gained in the midst of daily life. so this jhana without the hard work comes off to many as similar to those adds that tell you you can just take a pill and lose 50 pounds or whatever.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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Wind
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Re: What's the difference between Samadhi and Jhana?

Post by Wind » Fri Jul 09, 2010 3:50 am

jcsuperstar wrote: insight cant be gained in the midst of daily life.
Can you elaborate? Maybe an example?

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jcsuperstar
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Re: What's the difference between Samadhi and Jhana?

Post by jcsuperstar » Fri Jul 09, 2010 4:25 am

Wind wrote:
jcsuperstar wrote: insight cant be gained in the midst of daily life.
Can you elaborate? Maybe an example?
typo should have been CAN be gained...sorry
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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Re: What's the difference between Samadhi and Jhana?

Post by Kenshou » Fri Jul 09, 2010 5:06 am

jcsuperstar wrote: i think the argument is against those who think they can meditate 20mins or so a day while living a life not bound by the precepts and still achieve jhana. there is a huge difference..... so this jhana without the hard work comes off to many as similar to those adds that tell you you can just take a pill and lose 50 pounds or whatever.
I don't agree with this at all, first of all, but I actually haven't ever read anything like this on these forums, or the internet in general for the most part. I've read suggestions that the beginnings of absorption can potentially be experienced by a beginner after 30 minutes or so of non-distracted practice, but to cultivate this into something like jhana would require something more like hours per day for a fairly extended time. Both of which seem to me to be reasonable estimations. But not that 20 minutes per day will get you to jhana.

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Re: What's the difference between Samadhi and Jhana?

Post by Anicca » Fri Jul 09, 2010 5:08 am

Howdy Wind!
Wind wrote:thanks Anicca for your excellent description of Samadhi. I still wonder how many here has personally achieve it. If there are many here who can achieve Samadhi then I would know it's quite attainable unlike jhana where it's seem like an improbable task.
Wind, you are more than welcome, but i question your approach to all this - it should not be important to you what others achieve, only what you achieve. The only way you will know anything at all is know for yourself, not because someone posts it on an internet forum.

Belief in what the Buddha teaches is required - not what internet posers post.

Sharpen the precepts to a fine point. That fuels the meditation. Find the 16 steps of meditating that the Buddha teaches and do your best on just the first 4. See for yourself what happens. If the Buddha teaches anything, it is that when a cause exists, the results happen. Lead yourself to find out if it is attainable. Be prepared to give it your all and plenty of time if you really want to find out.

In the vein of what others have posted - if you find it possible to lay the foundation (Samadhi) for that first floor (Jhana) - maybe it is not unlikely or improbable to build upon it!

If the Buddha is worth studying, then surely you can believe that the only thing that determines what is or is not attainable is the effort you put into practicing the Dhamma. There is no magic in orange robes - there is only the practice and the results.

Metta

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Re: What's the difference between Samadhi and Jhana?

Post by jcsuperstar » Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:13 am

Kenshou wrote:
jcsuperstar wrote: i think the argument is against those who think they can meditate 20mins or so a day while living a life not bound by the precepts and still achieve jhana. there is a huge difference..... so this jhana without the hard work comes off to many as similar to those adds that tell you you can just take a pill and lose 50 pounds or whatever.
I don't agree with this at all, .
so you're saying jhana is just easy and one doesn't need time to develop it and follow a life of virtue?
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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Re: What's the difference between Samadhi and Jhana?

Post by Kenshou » Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:16 am

No, I'm trying to say that I don't think that, and more importantly, that I have never actually heard anybody say that around here. But I could be wrong, I haven't read every post.

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IanAnd
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Re: What's the difference between Samadhi and Jhana?

Post by IanAnd » Fri Jul 09, 2010 10:54 pm

Wind wrote:What's the difference between Samadhi and Jhana? How are they relate to one another?
Returning to the initial question, I've taken the time to transcribe a take on this question that conforms with my own experience in this matter. It is taken from Ven. Analayo's excellent book Satipatthana, The Direct Path to Realization. There's very little that I disagree with Ven. Analayo on when it comes to descriptions of meditation practice. His descriptions have, in general, reflected my own practice. So, in recommending this explanation (which is an expansion on the brief comment I gave in my previous post), I approach it from the standpoint that it is confirmed by my own experience.

It should provide enough information for some to be able to confirm from their own experience that attainment to the levels of jhana (absorption) describes a deeper state of concentration (samadhi) than just, to quote Analayo, a plain "relaxed happy reflection within easy reach of anyone and without much need for meditative proficiency." Anyone who has experienced any of the first four levels of absorption will be able to confirm this for himself as well as to verify Analayo's description.
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Goedert
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Re: What's the difference between Samadhi and Jhana?

Post by Goedert » Fri Jul 09, 2010 11:42 pm

Kenshou wrote:
jcsuperstar wrote: i think the argument is against those who think they can meditate 20mins or so a day while living a life not bound by the precepts and still achieve jhana. there is a huge difference..... so this jhana without the hard work comes off to many as similar to those adds that tell you you can just take a pill and lose 50 pounds or whatever.
I don't agree with this at all, first of all, but I actually haven't ever read anything like this on these forums, or the internet in general for the most part. I've read suggestions that the beginnings of absorption can potentially be experienced by a beginner after 30 minutes or so of non-distracted practice, but to cultivate this into something like jhana would require something more like hours per day for a fairly extended time. Both of which seem to me to be reasonable estimations. But not that 20 minutes per day will get you to jhana.
Friend,

He was stipulating a short time to describe how is the mind state of the people who think jhanas are impossible. Something like a magic pill for lose weight.

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Goedert
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Re: What's the difference between Samadhi and Jhana?

Post by Goedert » Fri Jul 09, 2010 11:58 pm

Friend,

In the simple practice exprience?

One-pointness concentration leads to absorption.
It is like a toboggan leding to the poll.

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Re: What's the difference between Samadhi and Jhana?

Post by Anicca » Sat Jul 10, 2010 2:24 am

IanAnd wrote:... I've taken the time to transcribe a take on this question that conforms with my own experience in this matter.
Thank you, IanAnd!

Please accept the following merely as an observation and question(s).

To differentiate between samadhi and jhana is really to differentiate between samadhi and first jhana. Understanding vitaka and vicara play a large part in the understanding of "what is first jhana?" and while the transcription you've provided does a detailed and splendid job with vitaka - vicara appears to be virtually ignored. Is not vicara worthy of at least the "equal time and effort" given to vitaka? Would you "grease the skids" regarding vicara? Or do i have to wait until i buy the book, which i will! ;)

Metta

Kenshou
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Re: What's the difference between Samadhi and Jhana?

Post by Kenshou » Sat Jul 10, 2010 2:25 am

What Ian has put out there is actually pretty much all that Analayo says on the subject in that book, actually.

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Re: What's the difference between Samadhi and Jhana?

Post by Anicca » Sat Jul 10, 2010 2:29 am

Kenshou wrote:What Ian has put out there is actually pretty much all that Analayo says on the subject in that book, actually.
Thanks Kenshou...

Aw shucks...

Metta

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Re: What's the difference between Samadhi and Jhana?

Post by Kenshou » Sat Jul 10, 2010 2:31 am

Still a good book, though. It's just that samadhi isn't really the main subject.

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