Does the Abidhamma speak about the different realms?

Discussion of Abhidhamma and related Commentaries
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mikenz66
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Re: Does the Abidhamma speak about the different realms?

Post by mikenz66 »

If we examine in detail what Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote, it seems quite straightforward.
The author undertakes this survey before examining the types of process-freed consciousness because the external universe, according to the Abhidhamma, is an outer reflection of the internal cosmos of the mind, registering in concrete manifest form the subtle graduations in states of consciousness. This does not mean that the Abhidhamma reduces the outer world to a dimension of mind in the manner of philosophical idealism. The outer world is quite real and possesses objective existence. However, the outer world is always a world apprehended by consciousness, and the type of consciousness determines the nature of the world that appears. Consciousness and the world are mutually dependent and inextricably connected to such an extent that the hierarchical structure of the realms of the universe exactly reproduces and corresponds to the hierarchical structure of consciousness.
...
The rest may be read at the link given above. It might help to point out that "process freed" means passive consciousness, i.e. consciousness not connected with the sense doors. (See earlier in the chapter).

[My impression is that Bhikkhu Bodhi is summarizing the Abhidhamma and Ancient Commentaries in his notes.]

This interdependence that he speaks of is, in more conventional language, what kamma is about:
"'I am the owner of my actions,[1] heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and have my actions as my arbitrator. Whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir.' ...
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Does the Abidhamma speak about the different realms?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike,

I didn't intepret what Bhikkhu Bodhi said earlier to be philosophical idealism though, so I don't really see quite how that dispels or placates the notion that "the external universe, according to the Abhidhamma, is an outer reflection of the internal cosmos of the mind". I read his sentence to suggest that (the external, objective, "out there", ontological) physical matter exists and is created by (or a "reflection" of) mind. Our Dhamma friend Anicca seemingly thought likewise when saying it referred to "mind over matter".

Either way, it seems a really odd proclamation when juxtaposed against suttas like...
SN 12.15 wrote:Dwelling at Savatthi... Then Ven. Kaccayana Gotta approached the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Lord, 'Right view, right view,' it is said. To what extent is there right view?"

"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one.
Compare that with Bhikkhu Bodhi's "The outer world is quite real and possesses objective existence."

Is the Buddha saying Bhikkhu Bodhi does not possess Right View? :?

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Does the Abidhamma speak about the different realms?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Retro,

In clarifying what the Abhidhamma implies, and how the commentaries interpret it, I'd be grateful for some more expert input from Abhidhamma experts, but I really don't see any contradiction with the passage you have quoted. One could take the commentarial explanation quoted by Bhikkhu Bodhi, which is that the reference is to eternalistic or annihialtionistic views, rather than a correct view based on dependent origination. Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation is a little different, from what you quoted, more like:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"The world in general, Kaccaayana, grasps after systems and is imprisoned by dogmas.[5] But he[6] does not go along with that system-grasping, that mental obstinacy and dogmatic bias, does not grasp at it, does not affirm: 'This is my self.'[7] He knows without doubt or hesitation that whatever arises is merely dukkha[8] that what passes away is merely dukkha and such knowledge is his own, not depending on anyone else. This, Kaccaayana, is what constitutes right view.

"'Everything exists,'[9] this is one extreme [view]; 'nothing exists,' this is the other extreme. Avoiding both extremes the Tathaagata[10] teaches a doctrine of the middle: Conditioned by ignorance are the formations...
Even If you're not satisfied with the commentarily explanation, I don't see how the Sutta could be interpreted as saying that there is no objective reality:
"Everything exists,' this is one extreme [view]; 'nothing exists,' this is the other extreme. "
And, as I said, according to the Suttas, much of what we experience is a result of kamma. Which the Abhidhamma expands on, as described in the chapter of the CMA under discussion. So I don't see any problem with Bhikkhu Bodhi statement:
Consciousness and the world are mutually dependent and inextricably connected ...
Mike
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Re: Does the Abidhamma speak about the different realms?

Post by kc2dpt »

retrofuturist wrote:Is the Buddha saying Bhikkhu Bodhi does not possess Right View?
It seems to me that sutta quote is teaching about anicca - the universe as we know it at one point came to be and at a future point will cease to be. As such, Ven. Bodhi would only be of wrong view if he posits a permanent and unchanging universe, if he denies anicca.
- Peter

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Re: Does the Abidhamma speak about the different realms?

Post by Virgo »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
The author undertakes this survey before examining the types of process-freed consciousness because the external universe, according to the Abhidhamma, is an outer reflection of the internal cosmos of mind
Does it? :shock:

Really?

What does that mean exactly?

The way I'm reading it, it sounds a bit back-to-front. How does the external universe be an "outer reflection of the internal cosmos of mind" when there's a 1 to many relationship between "the external universe" and the "internal cosmos of mind"? Do we each have our own private "external universe"? How do you exist in mine, and vice versa?

Metta,
Retro. :)
Hi Retrofuturist,

I think it could be worded differently. I don't think "internal cosmos of mind" is an accurate term, nor do I think that saying the "external universe in an outer reflection of [it]", is the best way to word things. But I do see the authors point, and it is a good point. Our citta can determine the plane of consciousness. For example, the kind of jhana citta one has at death (for one who has jhana) can bring rebirth in a corresponding brahma plane and so on.

As to your question about if everyone have different external universes, the answer is yes. Everyone lives in their own world. Why? Because the idea of "the outer world" is just a concept. There is seeing, hearing, and so on and thought processes make this seem like a whole to me, when it is just individual nama and rupa arising and falling away. You have similar experience. We think we share the "same world", but you are just imagining a world and I am imagining a similar one based on my own sense impressions and accumulations.

All the best,

Kevin
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Re: Does the Abidhamma speak about the different realms?

Post by pt1 »

retrofuturist wrote:
The author undertakes this survey before examining the types of process-freed consciousness because the external universe, according to the Abhidhamma, is an outer reflection of the internal cosmos of mind
Does it? :shock:

Really?

What does that mean exactly?

The way I'm reading it, it sounds a bit back-to-front. How does the external universe be an "outer reflection of the internal cosmos of mind" when there's a 1 to many relationship between "the external universe" and the "internal cosmos of mind"? Do we each have our own private "external universe"? How do you exist in mine, and vice versa?
I can't know for sure what Ven.BB had in mind, but my guess is that he was pointing to the correspondence between a plane of citta (internal cosmos) and a plane/realm of being (external universe). Although there's a correspondence, the two are not the same thing. E.g. as a human being, my cittas can be of all 3 planes - normally of sensuous plane, but if I attain jhana, then they can also be of form or formless plane depending on the jhanas. However, being born as a human being means that I am born in the sensuous realm of being, not in the form, nor in formless realms. Rebirth in a certain realm would depend on vipaka - e.g. if I attained some jhana in this life, perhaps that will result in rebirth in some form/less realm.

So, I think that reading into Ven.BB's quote things like
retrofuturist wrote: "Do we each have our own private "external universe"? How do you exist in mine, and vice versa?"
goes outside of the context of the quote.

Best wishes
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Re: Does the Abidhamma speak about the different realms?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Does anyone know what Bhikkhu Bodhi meant by this...
Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote:At the same time these realms provide the stage for consciousness to continue its evolution in a new personality and under a fresh set of circumstances
Again, I don't know whether this is just a clumsy use of words, but it sounds like this is falling into the error committed by Sati the Fisherman's Son...
MN 38 wrote:Then the Blessed One said: "Sati, is it true, that such an pernicious view has arisen to you. ‘As I know the Teaching of the Blessed One, this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else’?"

"Yes, venerable sir, as I know the Teaching of the Blessed One, this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else."

"Sati, what is that consciousness?"

"Venerable sir, it is that which feels and experiences, that which reaps the results of good and evil actions done here and there."

"Foolish man, to whom do you know me having taught the Dhamma like this. Haven’t I taught, in various ways that consciousness is dependently arisen. Without a cause, there is no arising of consciousness. Yet you, foolish man, on account of your wrong view, you misrepresent me, as well as destroy yourself and accumulate much demerit, for which you will suffer for a long time."

Then the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus: "Bhikkhus, what do you think, has this this bhikkhu Sati, son of a fisherman, learned anything from this dispensation?" "No, venerable sir."

When this was said the bhikkhu Sati became silent, unable to reply back, and sat with drooping shoulders and eyes turned down. Then the Blessed One, knowing that the bhikkhu Sati had become silent, unable to reply back, and was sitting with drooping shoulders and with eyes turned down, told him: "Foolish man, you will be known on account of this pernicious view; now I will question the bhikkhus on this."

Then the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus: "Bhikkhus, do you too know of this Teaching, the wrong view of the bhikkhu Sati, the son of a fisherman, on account of which he misrepresents us and also destroys himself and accumulates much suffering?"

"No, venerable sir. In various ways we have been taught that consciousness arises dependently. Without a cause there is no arising of consciousness."

"Good, bhikkhus! Good that you know the Dhamma taught by me. In various ways I have taught that consciousness arises dependently. Without a cause, there is no arising of consciousness. Yet, this bhikkhu Sati, son of a fisherman, by holding to this wrong view, misrepresents us and destroys himself and accumulates much demerit, and it will be for his suffering for a long time.

"Bhikkhus, consciousness is reckoned by the condition dependent upon which it arises. If consciousness arises on account of eye and forms, it is reckoned as eye consciousness. If on account of ear and sounds it arises, it is reckoned as ear consciousness. If on account of nose and smells it arises, it is reckoned as nose consciousness. If on account of tongue and tastes it arises, it is reckoned as tongue consciousness. If on account of body and touch it arises, it is reckoned as body consciousness. If on account of mind and mind-objects it arises, it is reckoned as mind consciousness. Bhikkhus, just as a fire is reckoned based on whatever that fire burns - fire ablaze on sticks is a stick fire, fire ablaze on twigs is a twig fire, fire ablaze on grass is a grass fire, fire ablaze on cowdung is a cowdung fire, fire ablaze on grain thrash is a grain thrash fire, fire ablaze on rubbish is a rubbish fire - so too is consciousness reckoned by the condition dependent upon which it arises. In the same manner consciousness arisen on account is eye and forms is eye consciousness. Consciousness arisen on account of ear and sounds is ear consciousness. Consciousness arisen on account of nose and smells is nose consciousness. Consciousness arisen on account of tongue and tastes is taste consciousness. Consciousness arisen on account of body and touch is body consciousness. Consciousness arisen on account of mind and mind-objects is mind consciousness
.
:weep:

Again, I'd be interested to know if these words from Bhikkhu Bodhi really are representative of the Mahavihara tradition, or whether he's going out on his own with these comments? Is the Buddha suggesting that Bhikkhu Bodhi has Wrong View and is accumulating demerit? :?

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Does the Abidhamma speak about the different realms?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Retro,

I'm not sure whether the Abhidhamma Forum is the right place to argue that the Abhidhamma and the Theravada have wrong view...

Again, I see no contradictions. Sati's view, from Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation is:
"It is the same consciousness that runs and wanders through the rounds of rebirth, not another."
It doesn't say that there isn't a "stream of consciousness", to use the translation in CMA.

Perhaps Bhikkhu Bodhi could have chosen different wordings. However, according to the text that we are discussing, there is a stream of consciousness running though each life. The last citta of a life conditions the start of a stream of another life. That life is affected by the actions of the previous life and the current life. "Evolution in a new personality" is one way of expressing that.

See, for example, page 228, V.41:
...
At the end of life, having become the death consciousness in the form of passing away, it then ceases. Thereafter, the rebirth-linking consciousness and the others continue to occur, revolving in due sequence like the wheel of a cart until one attains Nibbana.
Mike
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Re: Does the Abidhamma speak about the different realms?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:I'm not sure whether the Abhidhamma Forum is the right place to argue that the Abhidhamma and the Theravada have wrong view...
I'm not saying they do... I'm just genuinely shocked by some of what I'm reading there from Bhikkhu Bodhi and want to know whether it is Mahavihara compliant. Much of it reads like things I'd expect from the Tibetan religions, that's all.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Does the Abidhamma speak about the different realms?

Post by robertk »

Mike has already explained why Bodhi was not implying that it was the same citta that lasted over lives (or moments). And what you have quoted by Bodhi so far is orthodox . Where he seems to divert, in his notes , is his comments casting doubt on the authenticty of the Abhidhamma, also his idea, apparently lifted from Burmese teachers, that khanika samadhi means something deeper than momentary concentration(present in both kusala and akusala processes of citta).
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Re: Does the Abidhamma speak about the different realms?

Post by retrofuturist »

Thanks for the clarification, Robert.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Does the Abidhamma speak about the different realms?

Post by mikenz66 »

retrofuturist wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:I'm not sure whether the Abhidhamma Forum is the right place to argue that the Abhidhamma and the Theravada have wrong view...
I'm not saying they do... I'm just genuinely shocked by some of what I'm reading there from Bhikkhu Bodhi and want to know whether it is Mahavihara compliant. Much of it reads like things I'd expect from the Tibetan religions, that's all.
Really?

Can you give an example?

Mike
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Re: Does the Abidhamma speak about the different realms?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike,

As for examples... these...
"the external universe, according to the Abhidhamma, is an outer reflection of the internal cosmos of mind"

"registering in concrete manifest form the subtle gradations in states of consciousness."

"The outer world is always a world apprehended by consciousness"

"Consciousness and the world are mutually dependent and inextriably connected to such an extent that the hierarchical structure of the realms of existence exactly reproduces and corresponds to the hierarchical structure of consciousness."
...read (to me at least) like the citta-mātra philosophy of the Yogacara school.

Here's an extract from Wikipedia (so take it with a Wikipedia sized grain of salt)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness-only" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The standpoint of consciousness-only starts by explaining the world that presents to each being is regulated by and according to the seeds underlying in each being's ālaya consciousness (the eighth consciousness, the seed consciousness). One special species of the innumerable seeds, which will be activated when proper conditions are reached, are evolving from the accumulation of traces of sense perceptions and our behaviors in previous lives which then become seeds and stored in the eighth consciousness as "karma seeds" (there are still numerous other kinds of seeds, which can be considered as numerous different functions,such as the seed of eye-consciousness which, of course,produces eye-consciousness when activated. Unlike karma-seeds, seeds like eye-consciousness cannot be perfumed). When activated, these seeds drains from the eighth consciousness just like data stored in the hard disk turn or appear in the monitor as all kinds of illusions or appearances, and in a substantive way ,one for one, these seeds produce, or better describes as induce, new "seeds" (bīja) similar to themselves after being perfumed by the external and interactive world, according to a regular pattern, as seeds produce(induce) plants. Each being possesses a store of perceptions and beings which are generically alike will produce similar perceptions since their first five of Six Sense-organs (Six Indriyas), which are produced by the eighth consciousness according to the karma seeds, are similar to each other. The external world is created when the store consciousness (ālaya) is "perfumed" (薰) by activated seeds, i.e. the effects of good and evil deeds.

To summarize, the seeds behave in three ways:
1 Seeds, when activated, produce the external (material, physical) world and the internal (spiritual, mental) world, in total, the Eighteen Fields.
2 Seeds (or, to be more precise, Alaya consciousness) are perfumed by the three karmic activities of deed, word and thought (Three practices).
3 Seeds induce seeds.

And this gives the solution to the original paradox. The conception of "self", the false atman, is produced from seeds which are stored in the eighth consciousness(store-house consciousness" ,Sanskrit: ālāyavijñāna). Actions in this world, good, bad and neutral deeds, perfume (or mutate) these seeds. The seeds then produce or induce new seeds, with some seeds tainted by one's actions, and others unaffected. Even after death, the impressions of deeds — their karma — linger on in the seeds of alaya consciousness. As long as the four defilements of mental function (心所法), viz. self-delusion (我癡), self-view (我見), egotism (我慢), and self-love (我愛), of the seventh consciousness of certain being remain polluted, his/her reincarnation in the Three Realms (Sanskrit, Trailokya) will never cease. An Arhat is someone who has managed to obliterate all impressions of himself, verified for himself that the Eighteen Fields or the five skandhas(five aggregates,Sanskrit: pan~cāskandha ) are all illusory and empty of "self nature" or "essence" (Sanskrit: Svabhāva), and any desire to clamp on any of them should be and can be extinguished, thus at the last moment of his life , when the seeds of the other seventeen Fields stored in the eighth consciousness stop being activated through the determination of the seventh consciousness(The manas consciousness) and all the body functions stop concurrently; finally the seventh consciousness decides that it itself should cease being activated also and thus the eighth consciousness stops draining out the seed of the seventh consciousness, and so the whole Eighteen Fields gets extinguished after all, with the eighth consciousness alone existing in a state called as "never born and therefore never will die" or "no beginning and no ending ", in other words, Nirvana (涅槃) . It is extremely important for us to remember, that while we may say that such Arhat has escape the wheel of samsara and will not reborn again in the Three Realms, there is definitely no such Arhat or any being that stopped existing here and get reborn anywhere else. In contrast to that, a Buddha is someone who manages to get enlightened (eg. to verify for Himself the true existence of His ālaya consciousness) first, and after the verification or enlightenment, through innumerable karmic lives and non-karmic lives as a Bodhisattva, clears and substitutes all of His polluted seeds while they are activated until all of the seeds stored in the eighth consciousness are pure and clean. Through the dispolluting process, the Bodhisattva also manage to apprehend and verify all the individual and interactive functions of each seeds until He thoroughly masters them and attains the All-inclusive wisdom (一切種智); Such alaya consciousness fully cleansed of karmic sediment is renamed as amalavijñâna(菴摩羅識), or "pure consciousness"(無垢識).

The doctrine of consciousness-only thus reduces all existence to one hundred dharmas ( or factors) in five divisions (五位百法), namely, Mind(心法), Mental function(心所法), Material(色法), Not associated with mind(心不相應行法) and Unconditioned dharmas(無為法). The consciousness-only school thus sets out to enumerate and describe all these dharmas in detail.
Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Does the Abidhamma speak about the different realms?

Post by cooran »

Hello Retro,

Who wrote the Wikipedia article? Was it someone, as the Rules of the Abhidhamma forum state, " an author representative of the Classical point-of-view)" [/b]?

Just to refresh our minds about the rules of this forum:

The Abhidhamma and Classical Theravada sub-forums are specialized venues for the discussion of the Abhidhamma and the classical Mahavihara understanding of the Dhamma. Within these forums the Pali Tipitaka and its commentaries are for discussion purposes treated as authoritative. These forums are for the benefit of those members who wish to develop a deeper understanding of these texts and are not for the challenging of the Abhidhamma and/or Theravada commentarial literature.

Posts should also include support from a reference, a citation (Tipitaka, commentarial, or from a later work from an author representative of the Classical point-of-view).

Posts that contain personal opinions and conjecture, points of view arrived at from meditative experiences, conversations with devas, blind faith in the supreme veracity of one's own teacher's point of view etc. are all regarded as off-topic, and as such, will be subject to moderator review and/or removal.

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=374" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris
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Re: Does the Abidhamma speak about the different realms?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Chris,

Mike asked me for examples... what do you want me to do, ignore him?

The Mahavihara tradition itself compares and contrasts Classical Theravada to other early Dhamma schools in the Kathavatthu.

We're discussing and trying to better understand the Mahavihara position so I really don't see what the problem is.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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