New publication of Ajahn Buddhadasa's work

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clw_uk
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New publication of Ajahn Buddhadasa's work

Postby clw_uk » Tue Jun 29, 2010 10:58 pm

A new book that contains Ajahn Buddhadasa's work is soon to be published


It All Depends ...

Compiled from retreat talks exploring the practical understanding of dependent co-arising (paticcasamuppada), this new translation is in its final stages. Ajahn Buddhadasa's interpretation of paticcasamuppada cuts through a millennium of muddle to present this core of Buddha-Dhamma in a way that we can understand and practice today (rather than waiting for things to sort out in a future life).

This will be the most developed and extensive presentation of this teaching available in English. Sixteen chapters will be interspersed with important passages from the Pali suttas. Also to be published by Wisdom.

Please stay tuned for announcement of its publication in late 2010 or early 2011.


Sounds interesting, just thought I would share
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Re: New publication of Ajahn Buddhadasa's work

Postby jcsuperstar » Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:02 pm

where is this info from?
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

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Re: New publication of Ajahn Buddhadasa's work

Postby clw_uk » Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:04 pm

The dogmatists have claimed to have found the truth, others say that it cannot be apprehended; the Sceptics continue the search.
Sextus Empiricus

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Re: New publication of Ajahn Buddhadasa's work

Postby bodom » Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:05 pm

Excellent! Its about time.

:anjali:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

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Re: New publication of Ajahn Buddhadasa's work

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:15 pm

Greetings,

bodom wrote:Excellent! Its about time.

Indeed.

I'm looking forward to it.

Thanks for the heads up, Craig.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: New publication of Ajahn Buddhadasa's work

Postby Ben » Wed Jun 30, 2010 12:10 am

Thank you Craig for passing on the news.
I'm sure that many of our members will appreciate knowing of the upcoming publication.
kind regards

Ben
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Re: New publication of Ajahn Buddhadasa's work

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Jun 30, 2010 12:28 am

Greetings,

I'm hoping it's quite structured.

Obviously Ajahn Buddhadasa isn't here to ensure it is, but it would be really nice to have a well-structured and cohesive presentation on Dependent Origination. Somewhat like his "Practical Dependent Origination" text, but more detailed and more thorough.

If it just turns out to be a random scattering of Dhamma talks connected only by the fact they relate to dependent origination, I'll not be quite so enthused.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

“One to whom it might occur, ‘I’m a woman’ or ‘I’m a man’. Or ‘I’m anything at all’— Is fit for Mara to address.” (SN 5.2)

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Re: New publication of Ajahn Buddhadasa's work

Postby bodom » Fri Dec 02, 2016 5:54 pm

So this book is finally being published after being delayed a few years:

Under the Bodhi Tree takes us back to the principles at the heart of Buddha’s teachings—conditionality and dependent co arising. Buddhadasa Bhikkhu makes the case for dependent co arising as a natural law, and builds a compelling presentation of Buddhist philosophy, meditation, and practice from there on up. Basing himself squarely on the Buddha’s own words as preserved in the Pali Canon, he brings clarity and simplicity to what is typically a thorny philosophical knot. By returning dependent co arising to its central place in Buddhist theory and practice, Buddhadasa provides perspective on the Buddha’s own insights and awakening.

Under the Bodhi Tree is another excellent entry from one of the most renowned Buddhist thinkers of modern times.


http://www.wisdompubs.org/book/under-bodhi-tree

:namaste:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

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Re: New publication of Ajahn Buddhadasa's work

Postby Zom » Fri Dec 02, 2016 8:12 pm

but it would be really nice to have a well-structured and cohesive presentation on Dependent Origination.


His interpretations go too far and can't stand against the 4 great standards of Dhamma mentioned in DN16. :coffee:
However, need to say, this is quite typical for asian teachers, especially thai and sri-lankan.

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Re: New publication of Ajahn Buddhadasa's work

Postby Hyke » Mon Dec 05, 2016 4:39 am

but it would be really nice to have a well-structured and cohesive presentation on Dependent Origination.

But we already do, in the Pali canon.

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Re: New publication of Ajahn Buddhadasa's work

Postby Coëmgenu » Thu Dec 22, 2016 12:33 pm

Zom wrote:
but it would be really nice to have a well-structured and cohesive presentation on Dependent Origination.


His interpretations go too far and can't stand against the 4 great standards of Dhamma mentioned in DN16. :coffee:
However, need to say, this is quite typical for asian teachers, especially thai and sri-lankan.
The wounds of British imperialism are deep and heal slowly. Asian Buddhists will never be legitimate enough for DhammaWheel participants I suspect sometimes.

What sort of nonsense lead to to this conclusion?

*Especially Thai and Sri Lankan*

Mahāyāna Buddhists are more legitimate to you than the people who evangelized your teachers. That says a lot, considering that trolls who disparage Asian Buddhists usually don't have high opinions of Mahāyāna practice.
Bhagavā arahaṃ sammasāmbuddho:
Svākkhāto yena bhagavatā dhammo / Supaṭipanno yassa bhagavato sāvakasaṅgho
Tammayaṃ bhagavantaṃ sadhammaṃ sasaṅghaṃ / Imehi sakkārehi yathārahaṃ āropitehi abhipūjayāma.
(Dedication of Offerings)
此等諸法,法住、法空、法如、法爾,法不離如,法不異如,審諦真實、不顛倒。These many dharmāḥ, the residence of these dharmāḥ, the emptiness of these dharmāḥ, these dharmāḥ self-explain, these dharmāḥ are thus, these dharmāḥ do not depart from their self-explaining, these dharmāḥ are not different than their self-explaining, judged as truly real, not delusional. (SA 296, 因緣法)
揭諦揭諦,波羅揭諦,波羅僧揭諦,菩提薩婆訶

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Re: New publication of Ajahn Buddhadasa's work

Postby Zom » Thu Dec 22, 2016 6:29 pm

What sort of nonsense lead to to this conclusion?


Just plain observation. Believe me, I read and heard a lot. As for the topic, please read Buddhadhasa's paticca-samuppada explanation, and then compare it with canonical text - you can start with SN 12 chapter, for example. And you'll see what I mean.

Mahāyāna Buddhists are more legitimate to you than


No.

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Re: New publication of Ajahn Buddhadasa's work

Postby Mkoll » Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:54 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Zom wrote:
but it would be really nice to have a well-structured and cohesive presentation on Dependent Origination.


His interpretations go too far and can't stand against the 4 great standards of Dhamma mentioned in DN16. :coffee:
However, need to say, this is quite typical for asian teachers, especially thai and sri-lankan.
The wounds of British imperialism are deep and heal slowly. Asian Buddhists will never be legitimate enough for DhammaWheel participants I suspect sometimes.

What sort of nonsense lead to to this conclusion?

*Especially Thai and Sri Lankan*

Mahāyāna Buddhists are more legitimate to you than the people who evangelized your teachers. That says a lot, considering that trolls who disparage Asian Buddhists usually don't have high opinions of Mahāyāna practice.

Just because someone makes an observation based upon nationality (or race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, gender, whatever) doesn't necessarily mean they view said group (or any group) as fundamentally inferior or illegitimate.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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Re: New publication of Ajahn Buddhadasa's work

Postby Coëmgenu » Fri Dec 23, 2016 1:59 am

Mkoll wrote:Just because someone makes an observation based upon nationality (or race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, gender, whatever) doesn't necessarily mean they view said group (or any group) as fundamentally inferior or illegitimate.
He chose to singled out and focus on Thai and Sri Lankan teachers as being "especially" inauthentic, not me. It is an absurd thing to say, that Thai and Sri Lankan teachers have less authentic Dhamma than anyone elses.
Bhagavā arahaṃ sammasāmbuddho:
Svākkhāto yena bhagavatā dhammo / Supaṭipanno yassa bhagavato sāvakasaṅgho
Tammayaṃ bhagavantaṃ sadhammaṃ sasaṅghaṃ / Imehi sakkārehi yathārahaṃ āropitehi abhipūjayāma.
(Dedication of Offerings)
此等諸法,法住、法空、法如、法爾,法不離如,法不異如,審諦真實、不顛倒。These many dharmāḥ, the residence of these dharmāḥ, the emptiness of these dharmāḥ, these dharmāḥ self-explain, these dharmāḥ are thus, these dharmāḥ do not depart from their self-explaining, these dharmāḥ are not different than their self-explaining, judged as truly real, not delusional. (SA 296, 因緣法)
揭諦揭諦,波羅揭諦,波羅僧揭諦,菩提薩婆訶

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Re: New publication of Ajahn Buddhadasa's work

Postby CecilN » Sun Dec 25, 2016 10:01 am

Zom wrote:Just plain observation. Believe me, I read and heard a lot. As for the topic, please read Buddhadhasa's paticca-samuppada explanation, and then compare it with canonical text - you can start with SN 12 chapter, for example. And you'll see what I mean.


Buddhadasa's view is consistent with the texts. SN 12 chapter refers to birth/jati as the mental production of beings/satta that occurs from misapprehension of the appearance of the aggregates and the mind transformed/captured by sense impressions. Satta is referred throughout the texts as a wrong view and a mental state of entrapment (see the Satta Sutta and the Vajita Sutta).

Dependent origination is described in all of the texts as culminating in sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief & despair, which happens in the present life and present moment rather than in a future life. The cause of this sorrow is the ageing & death of a being/satta; where the being is a product of attachment, such as the being called myself, my mother, my father, my wife, my friend. These beings, such as myself, mother, father, wife, friend, are birth or the products of birth.

The Nakulapita Sutta in SN 22 helps understand this process where aging & death only cause suffering when there is self views. When there are no self-view, the natural process of change & alteration does not cause suffering.

Birth, aging & death are not physical despite the physical descriptions because the aging & death is occurring to a being/satta. It causes sorrow & suffering when there is the view I am aging & dying or my mother is aging & dying. Suffering happens when there is the thinking: "My hair is greying, my teeth are rotting, my skin is wrinkling" or "my mother's corpse is being laid down into the grave".

Buddhadasa is unquestionably correct in his books.

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Re: New publication of Ajahn Buddhadasa's work

Postby Zom » Sun Dec 25, 2016 3:52 pm

:D

Alright, let's see the texts and take, for example,"aging and death":

From SN 12.2:

The aging of the various beings in the various orders of beings, their growing old, brokenness of teeth, greyness of hair, wrinkling of skin, decline of vitality, degeneration of the faculties: this is called aging. The passing away of the various beings from the various orders of beings, their perishing, breakup, disappearance, mortality, death, completion of time, the breakup of the aggregates, the laying down of the carcass: this is called death.

And you keep saying "Birth, aging & death are not physical despite the physical descriptions". You must be a hardcore Buddhadhasa fan to speak like that -) Buddha says very clearly what does "aging" and "death" mean - while Buddhadhasa's explanation is something entirely different. Same happens with all other dependent-origination links. Buddhadhasa cooked up his own theory, because he liked his idea about "Birth and Death of Ego (probably he meant conceit - "mana" in Pali)". But the truth is - this is just his personal interpretation, which goes quite far from Buddha's explanation. The idea is nice, but his explanation is plainly incorrect, and contradicts not even suttas, but theravadin canonical commentaries as well.

The Nakulapita Sutta in SN 22 helps understand this process where aging & death only cause suffering when there is self views. When there are no self-view, the natural process of change & alteration does not cause suffering.


Sorry, but this is a superficial understanding of suffering. SN 22.1 speaks about only about a small part of mental suffering (and absolutely nothing about physical suffering). A person without a self-view (a sotapanna), indeed, has less mental pain because of lessened clinging to the aggregates, but still he suffers both from mental and bodily painful feelings caused by different other causes. Even Buddha suffered a lot during his last days - he had severe illness. He, as like other arahants, has no mental pains, but still has bodily pains. All those who are not arahants still have mental pains because of defilements. Complete cessation of all suffering is final nibbana - that is - 100% cessation of physical and mental existence. This is how you quit samsara with its pain - and there's no other way. This is exactly what Buddha showed with paticca-samuppada model - this is its crucial meaning.

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Re: New publication of Ajahn Buddhadasa's work

Postby Lucem » Sun Dec 25, 2016 4:50 pm

:goodpost: Zom

I have no problem with people having different theories about the world than Buddha. But I have a problem with people saying their theories about the world are what Buddha taught. To get rid of interpretations as audacious as Buddhadasa all one needs to do is read the Samayuta Nikaya, the volume that explains the doctrine of the 5 aggregates. Such theories have nothing to do with what Buddha taught. There is no point debating with such theories because they are simply another story just like christianity or islam is another story than what is written in the Pali Canon. If someone comes and says "this is actually from the pali canon", all one can say is "go read the pali canon to see it is not so". This is the same reaction I have when seen such theories: Just go and read the pali canon.

Most people read only the first sutta (the one with the 12 links) from chapter 2 of SN and expect to understand a 2000 page book by reading just 3 pages. This is like a person reading 3 pages of an engineering book and then start debating with real engineers who have read the whole book and had contemplated it for months. What one has to do in order to have any chance of understanding dependent origination is simply read what Buddha had to say. Stop reading books about what others have to say about dependent origination. This was Buddha insight so go read the book about what Buddha had to say. And he had to say quite a lot since there are about 1500 pages on the doctrine of the 5 aggregates alone.

If you do not agree with the Buddha, then do not follow him and follow another person. But at least read what he had to say before throwing him at the garbage and embracing some famous bhikkhu. Let's not forget "buddhism" comes from "Buddha". Buddha was the person who got all this thing started in the first place. Why not read what Buddha had to say ?

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Re: New publication of Ajahn Buddhadasa's work

Postby CecilN » Sun Dec 25, 2016 7:03 pm

Zom wrote:The aging of the various beings in the various orders of beings, their growing old, brokenness of teeth, greyness of hair, wrinkling of skin, decline of vitality, degeneration of the faculties: this is called aging. The passing away of the various beings from the various orders of beings, their perishing, breakup, disappearance, mortality, death, completion of time, the breakup of the aggregates, the laying down of the carcass: this is called death.

What ages & dies are beings/satta. Beings are views and delusions.

"'A being,' lord. 'A being,' it's said. To what extent is one said to be 'a being'?"

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for form, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.'

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for feeling... perception... fabrications...

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for consciousness, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.' SN 23.2


Then the bhikkhuni Vajira, having understood, "This is Mara the Evil One," replied to him in verses:

Why now do you assume 'a being'?
Mara, have you grasped a view?
This is a heap of sheer constructions:
Here no being is found.

Just as, with an assemblage of parts,
The word 'chariot' is used,
So, when the aggregates are present,
There's the convention 'a being.'

It's only suffering that comes to be,
Suffering that stands and falls away.
Nothing but suffering comes to be,
Nothing but suffering ceases.

SN 5.10



Because Buddhas and arahants are not beings, they do not age & die. What happens to them is life terminates.

He has been stilled where the currents of construing do not flow. And when the currents of construing do not flow, he is said to be a sage at peace.' Thus was it said. With reference to what was it said? 'I am' is a construing. 'I am this' is a construing. 'I shall be' is a construing. 'I shall not be'... 'I shall be possessed of form'... 'I shall not be possessed of form'... 'I shall be percipient'... 'I shall not be percipient'... 'I shall be neither percipient nor non-percipient' is a construing. Construing is a disease, construing is a cancer, construing is an arrow. By going beyond all construing, he is said to be a sage at peace.

Furthermore, a sage at peace is not born, does not age, does not die, is unagitated, and is free from longing. He has nothing whereby he would be born. Not being born, will he age? Not aging, will he die? Not dying, will he be agitated? Not being agitated, for what will he long? It was in reference to this that it was said, 'He has been stilled where the currents of construing do not flow. And when the currents of construing do not flow, he is said to be a sage at peace.'

MN 140


And so, my friend Yamaka — when you can't pin down the Tathagata as a truth or reality even in the present life — is it proper for you to declare, 'As I understand the Teaching explained by the Blessed One, a monk with no more effluents, on the break-up of the body, is annihilated, perishes, & does not exist after death'?"

"Previously, my friend Sariputta, I did foolishly hold that evil supposition. But now, having heard your explanation of the Dhamma, I have abandoned that evil supposition, and have broken through to the Dhamma."

"Then, friend Yamaka, how would you answer if you are thus asked: A monk, a worthy one, with no more mental effluents: what is he on the break-up of the body, after death?"

"Thus asked, I would answer, 'Form is inconstant... Feeling... Perception... Fabrications... Consciousness is inconstant. That which is inconstant is unsatisfactory. That which is unsatisfactory has ceased and gone to its end."

"Very good, my friend Yamaka. Very good.

SN 22.85

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Re: New publication of Ajahn Buddhadasa's work

Postby Zom » Sun Dec 25, 2016 8:44 pm

What ages & dies are beings/satta. Beings are views and delusions.


Ye, views and delusions with wrinkled skin and broken teeth :D

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Re: New publication of Ajahn Buddhadasa's work

Postby Mkoll » Sun Dec 25, 2016 11:12 pm

Lucem wrote::goodpost: Zom

I have no problem with people having different theories about the world than Buddha. But I have a problem with people saying their theories about the world are what Buddha taught.

Indeed. And to misrepresent the Blessed One is to store up much demerit. I've wondered if those who espouse to others these "no rebirth" theories ever think about the kind of kamma they're creating. To keep such them to oneself is one thing, but to espouse them as what the Buddha taught is quite another.

Lucem wrote:If someone comes and says "this is actually from the pali canon", all one can say is "go read the pali canon to see it is not so". This is the same reaction I have when seen such theories: Just go and read the pali canon.

Most people read only the first sutta (the one with the 12 links) from chapter 2 of SN and expect to understand a 2000 page book by reading just 3 pages. This is like a person reading 3 pages of an engineering book and then start debating with real engineers who have read the whole book and had contemplated it for months. What one has to do in order to have any chance of understanding dependent origination is simply read what Buddha had to say. Stop reading books about what others have to say about dependent origination. This was Buddha insight so go read the book about what Buddha had to say. And he had to say quite a lot since there are about 1500 pages on the doctrine of the 5 aggregates alone.

If you do not agree with the Buddha, then do not follow him and follow another person. But at least read what he had to say before throwing him at the garbage and embracing some famous bhikkhu. Let's not forget "buddhism" comes from "Buddha". Buddha was the person who got all this thing started in the first place. Why not read what Buddha had to say ?

What's interesting is that some of those who believe such theories actually have read enough suttas to know better. What they're forced to do is to twist the meaning of key terms so that the many suttas that directly refute their theories no longer do.

But I think you're right in that a lot of those who espouse these theories just haven't read enough of the Canon to get a clear enough idea of what's going on.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa


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