Goenka technique

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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cooran
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Re: Goenka technique

Post by cooran » Sun Jun 20, 2010 5:57 am

Brizzy wrote: Is "practicing" vipassana possible?
What is your opinion of this Brizzy? And how did you come you your conclusions?

with metta
Chris
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Re: Goenka technique

Post by Brizzy » Sun Jun 20, 2010 7:34 am

cooran wrote:
Brizzy wrote: Is "practicing" vipassana possible?
What is your opinion of this Brizzy? And how did you come you your conclusions?

with metta
Chris
Refer to tiltbillings post. A meditation technique/ritual/bodyscan that one decides to label "vipassana" is a misnomer.

:smile:

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tiltbillings
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Re: Goenka technique

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Jun 20, 2010 7:39 am

Brizzy wrote:]

Refer to tiltbillings post. A meditation technique/ritual/bodyscan that one decides to label "vipassana" is a misnomer.
It is just one of those things like "taking" refuge or "enlightenment."
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Brizzy

Re: Goenka technique

Post by Brizzy » Sun Jun 20, 2010 7:48 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Brizzy wrote:]

Refer to tiltbillings post. A meditation technique/ritual/bodyscan that one decides to label "vipassana" is a misnomer.
It is just one of those things like "taking" refuge or "enlightenment."
:shrug: I do not understand.

:smile:

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tiltbillings
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Re: Goenka technique

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Jun 20, 2010 7:57 am

Brizzy wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Brizzy wrote:]

Refer to tiltbillings post. A meditation technique/ritual/bodyscan that one decides to label "vipassana" is a misnomer.
It is just one of those things like "taking" refuge or "enlightenment."
:shrug: I do not understand.
One does not "take" refuge; the Pali is gacchami, I go for refuge. Bodhi is awakening, not enlightenment. Calling the practice "vipassana" because it cultivates those things that leads to vipassana is just one of those things. It is no big deal.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Brizzy

Re: Goenka technique

Post by Brizzy » Sun Jun 20, 2010 8:11 am

tiltbillings wrote: One does not "take" refuge; the Pali is gacchami, I go for refuge. Bodhi is awakening, not enlightenment. Calling the practice "vipassana" because it cultivates those things that leads to vipassana is just one of those things. It is no big deal.
It is, if one believes that by following a certain technique/rite/ritual/bodyscan etc. one will necessarily cultivate the eightfold path. A technique is just that and should not be vaunted as the thing itself. The Buddha was very reticent about such things as "techniques", he rather gave a teaching and left it to each individuals wisdom to penetrate.

:smile:

PeterB
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Re: Goenka technique

Post by PeterB » Sun Jun 20, 2010 8:12 am

Oleksandr wrote:Hello Ben,

I understand that in Goenka tradition "bhanga" is not associated with jhanas. It is my personal opinion that state called "bhanga" by S.N. Goenka and his students is the same or near that what is called "jhana" in some other traditions.

Anyway, may be you can recommend texts or dhammatalks where "bhanga" is described in details (more or less) by S.N. Goenka or somebody else from his tradition? Then I would be able to elaborate on this topic or to correct my opinion.
No, sorry. bhanga is not Jhana. Although some may conflate the two.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Goenka technique

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Jun 20, 2010 8:30 am

Brizzy wrote:
It is, if one believes that by following a certain technique/rite/ritual/bodyscan etc. one will necessarily cultivate the eightfold path. A technique is just that and should not be vaunted as the thing itself. The Buddha was very reticent about such things as "techniques", he rather gave a teaching and left it to each individuals wisdom to penetrate.
My initial response is: tough beans. The fact of the matter is that it is going to be called vipassana meditation whether you like it or not and your petulant "rite/ritual" slam adds nothing. "Techniques" are simply tools, which may or may not be a fit for those who try them, but if they help one cultivate a concentrated/mindful mind, why complain? Being tools they are sooner or later let go.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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jcsuperstar
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Re: Goenka technique

Post by jcsuperstar » Sun Jun 20, 2010 9:09 am

Brizzy wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: One does not "take" refuge; the Pali is gacchami, I go for refuge. Bodhi is awakening, not enlightenment. Calling the practice "vipassana" because it cultivates those things that leads to vipassana is just one of those things. It is no big deal.
It is, if one believes that by following a certain technique/rite/ritual/bodyscan etc. one will necessarily cultivate the eightfold path. A technique is just that and should not be vaunted as the thing itself. The Buddha was very reticent about such things as "techniques", he rather gave a teaching and left it to each individuals wisdom to penetrate.

:smile:
are the instructions to rahula not a technique? or the anapanasati sutta, or 4 things one does that leads to the 1st stage of awakening. they are like goenka's or mahasi sayadaw's or anyone else's technique, simply instructions one follows to allow for the arising of the conditions necessary for insight to arise. nothing more. it would seem those who vilify these techniques as more than this make more of them than do those who follow them or instruct other's in them.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

upekkha
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Re: Goenka technique

Post by upekkha » Sun Jun 20, 2010 1:15 pm

I find this whole 'bhanga: jhana or not jhana' discussion to be faulty, since it is too general.
It's not like you are analyzing someone's description of a certain meditation experience and then commenting on what you think that was, you are talking in broad terms.
'Bhanga' can mean different things to different people. 'Jhana' can mean different things to different people (Sutta Jhana vs. Visudhimagga Jhana).

If you take the 'Vipassana Jhana' approach (Mahasi Sayadaw), then the experience of Bhanga is within the 2nd Vipassana Jhana.
But from my own experience, what Goenka calls 'Bhanga' can be experienced in different ways. You could have a 'Bhanga-like' experience in the First Nyana (Mind & Body) where you feel the whole body as vibrations, but you can also have a 'Bhanga' experience (which is probably what Goenka means) at the 4th nyana (Arising and passing away), which feels much more intense than Nyana 1. It could be felt as the whole body exploding into vibrations, lack of orientation of body and so on.

It is simply a matter of one's own personal experience, and talking so broadly is really point-less, I think :)
:namaste:

vitellius
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Re: Goenka technique

Post by vitellius » Sun Jun 20, 2010 10:39 pm

Ben wrote:Hi Oleksandr,
As a matter of interest, what is your opinion based on?
Basically, description of "bhanga" in S.N. Goenka's lectures at the 10-day retreat reminds me quite close how "jhana" is described by Thanissaro Bhikkhu and Henepola Gunaratana. I have also considered Mahasi Sayadaw's texts, suttas and personal experience.

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Re: Goenka technique

Post by Ben » Mon Jun 21, 2010 2:05 am

Hi Oleksandr
Would you be so kind to elaborate; to compare and contrast?
kind regards

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upekkha
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Re: Goenka technique

Post by upekkha » Mon Jun 21, 2010 4:59 am

Oleksandr,
Which Jhana is the Bhikkhu talking about specifically?

Since it is possible be that these two states share some qualities, but in Goenka's Vipassana method one is applying oneself to see the impermanent nature of such states, while in Jhana practice one is cultivating its stability.

PeterB
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Re: Goenka technique

Post by PeterB » Mon Jun 21, 2010 9:58 am

upekkha wrote:I find this whole 'bhanga: jhana or not jhana' discussion to be faulty, since it is too general.
It's not like you are analyzing someone's description of a certain meditation experience and then commenting on what you think that was, you are talking in broad terms.
'Bhanga' can mean different things to different people. 'Jhana' can mean different things to different people (Sutta Jhana vs. Visudhimagga Jhana).

If you take the 'Vipassana Jhana' approach (Mahasi Sayadaw), then the experience of Bhanga is within the 2nd Vipassana Jhana.
But from my own experience, what Goenka calls 'Bhanga' can be experienced in different ways. You could have a 'Bhanga-like' experience in the First Nyana (Mind & Body) where you feel the whole body as vibrations, but you can also have a 'Bhanga' experience (which is probably what Goenka means) at the 4th nyana (Arising and passing away), which feels much more intense than Nyana 1. It could be felt as the whole body exploding into vibrations, lack of orientation of body and so on.

It is simply a matter of one's own personal experience, and talking so broadly is really point-less, I think :)
:namaste:
To your last sentence I would say....... quite so.

vitellius
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Re: Goenka technique

Post by vitellius » Mon Jun 21, 2010 10:14 am

Ben wrote:Hi Oleksandr
Would you be so kind to elaborate; to compare and contrast?
Yes :) (although it may take some time to find all relevant quotes etc.)

May be you could be so kind to point me at relevant texts and talks of S.N. Goenka and U Ba Khin where they talk about bhanga?

Particularly, is it possible to find dhamma talks of the 10-day retreat?

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