MUHAMMAD (PBUH) IN BUDDHIST SCRIPTURES?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Re: MUHAMMAD (PBUH) IN BUDDHIST SCRIPTURES?

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Jun 19, 2010 5:59 am

Greetings Chris,
cooran wrote:Where do you find the Buddha teaching this way of disrespectful verbal/written action? I have always been attracted to the way the Blessed One taught respect for other religions, even to the point of encouraging new disciples to continue to support their previous teachers in other faiths.
Yes, I understand what you mean. Just earlier today my son said to me, "I believe in Buddha. I don't believe in God". Many religionists would jump for joy to hear such words from their children. The first thing though that came to mind though, was that I didn't want him to take it that extra step and start disparaging God and others' belief in him. I tried to explain to him that Jesus and the Buddha both taught people to be kind, caring, compassionate and that if people follow these teachings they will have a happy heart.

From King Asoka's Rock Edicts... http://www.katinkahesselink.net/tibet/asoka1.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Beloved of the Gods, the king Piyadassi, honours all sects and both ascetics and laymen, with gifts and various forms of recognition. But the Beloved of the Gods do not consider gifts or honour to be as important as the advancement of the essential doctrine of all sects. This progress of the essential doctrine takes many forms, but its basis is the control of one's speech, so as not to extoll one's own sect or disparage another's on unsuitable occasions, or at least to do so only mildly on certain occasions. On each occasion one should honour another man's sect, for by doing so one increases the influence of one's own sect and benefits that of the other man; whileby doing otherwise one diminishes the influence of one's own sect and harms the other man's. Again, whosoever honours his own sect or disparages that of another man, wholly out of devotion to his own, with a view to showing it in a favourable light, harms his own sect even more seriously. Therefore, concord is to be commanded, so that men may hear one anothers principles and obey them. This is the desire of the Beloved of the Gods, that all sects should be well-informed, and should teach that which is good, and that everywhere their adherents should be told, 'The Beloved of the Gods does not consider gifts or honour to be as important as the progress of the essential doctrine of all sects.' Many are concerned with this matter - the officers of Dhamma, the women's officers, the managers of the state farms, and other classes of officers. The result of this is the increased influence of one's own sect and glory to Dhamma.
Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: MUHAMMAD (PBUH) IN BUDDHIST SCRIPTURES?

Post by cooran » Sat Jun 19, 2010 6:11 am

tiltbillings wrote:It would be nice if all members of all religions could get along. It simply harder for some by the very structure of their teachings to do so.

As for the the history you referenced, it is never quite so simple as spelled out in a few paragraphs.
Actually Tilt and all, it only takes, for practising buddhists, normal effort to adhere to the precepts, initial freedom from prejudice or the willingness to see others without the veil of hatred, and true lovingkindness and compassion for all beings - not just "those like us".

I work with many Muslim and Hindu doctors, nurses and allied health professionals. Fine, intelligent, caring, ethical, hard-working, loving people. A very close friend is a Muslim woman who wears the hijab, is an effective social worker with patients of all nationalities and ages in our hospital.
Retro said: I tried to explain to him that Jesus and the Buddha both taught people to be kind, caring, compassionate and that if people follow these teachings they will have a happy heart.
This is lovely to read Paul ~ as is the script of King Asoka's Rock Edicts ... and he learned the hard way.

with metta
Chris
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Re: MUHAMMAD (PBUH) IN BUDDHIST SCRIPTURES?

Post by tiltbillings » Sat Jun 19, 2010 6:21 am

cooran wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:It would be nice if all members of all religions could get along. It simply harder for some by the very structure of their teachings to do so.

As for the the history you referenced, it is never quite so simple as spelled out in a few paragraphs.
Actually Tilt and all, it only takes, for practising buddhists, normal effort to adhere to the precepts, initial freedom from prejudice or the willingness to see others without the veil of hatred, and true lovingkindness and compassion for all beings - not just "those like us".

I work with many Muslim and Hindu doctors, nurses and allied health professionals. Fine, intelligent, caring, ethical, hard-working, loving people. A very close friend is a Muslim woman who wears the hijab, is an effective social worker with patients of all nationalities and ages in our hospital.
Which is fine, and we can point to periods of remakable, second to none, Islamic tolerance in certain parts of the world. All in all, however, I do find Islam an unappealling religion for any number of reasons. No need, however, to prejudge its members.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: MUHAMMAD (PBUH) IN BUDDHIST SCRIPTURES?

Post by Marge » Sat Jun 19, 2010 1:53 pm

Buddhism has many things in common with most religions. Except, unlike some religions with a god, the buddha himself should not and did not want to be idolized, revered. It is a practice, not a dogma. He is a representation only to remind us of a path we can try out for ourselves. Why is it important whether Muhammad is similar? Are we really waiting for the next buddha to appear? Do we want to make everyone a practicing buddhist - Yes, kind of, because we want peace, and a good life for all as soon as possible. But, I do not remember proselytizing being one of the teachings, and this is right. It may be slower to evolve, but if there is a desire to control, it probably wouldn't work anyway. What are our motives for combining religions?

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Re: MUHAMMAD (PBUH) IN BUDDHIST SCRIPTURES?

Post by Modus.Ponens » Sat Jun 19, 2010 2:03 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
cooran wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:It would be nice if all members of all religions could get along. It simply harder for some by the very structure of their teachings to do so.

As for the the history you referenced, it is never quite so simple as spelled out in a few paragraphs.
Actually Tilt and all, it only takes, for practising buddhists, normal effort to adhere to the precepts, initial freedom from prejudice or the willingness to see others without the veil of hatred, and true lovingkindness and compassion for all beings - not just "those like us".

I work with many Muslim and Hindu doctors, nurses and allied health professionals. Fine, intelligent, caring, ethical, hard-working, loving people. A very close friend is a Muslim woman who wears the hijab, is an effective social worker with patients of all nationalities and ages in our hospital.
Which is fine, and we can point to periods of remakable, second to none, Islamic tolerance in certain parts of the world. All in all, however, I do find Islam an unappealling religion for any number od reasons. No need, however, to prejudge its members.
A good hearted and peaceful muslim is a very positive thing. They take their teachings on generosity very seriously, for example.

A bad muslim is a terrible thing. And the problem is that they reflect the original founder of the religion: Mohamed. 60% of the Quran is about war. Moderate people in the west assume Islam is a peaceful religion.
"He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' " - Jhana Sutta

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Re: MUHAMMAD (PBUH) IN BUDDHIST SCRIPTURES?

Post by Goedert » Sat Jun 19, 2010 2:11 pm

Muhammad was not Maitreya. Point.

Another sammasambuddha only will apper when there is no more true dhamma, when the path that leads to nibbana has ended.

Maitreya also will be a Vīryādhika Sammasambuddha (through more effort) Buddha.
The future Buddha, the fifth of this kappa (Bu.xxvii.21).

According to the Cakkavatti Sīhanāda Sutta, he will be born, when human beings will live to an age of eighty thousand years, in the city of Ketumatī (present Benares), whose king will be the Cakkavattī Sankha. Sankha will live in the fairy palace where once dwelt King Mahāpanadā, but later he will give the palace away and will himself become a follower of Metteyya Buddha (D.iii.75ff).

The Anāgatavamsa (J.P.T.S.1886, pp.42, 46ff., 52; DhSA.415 gives the names of his parents) gives further particulars. Metteyya will be born in a very eminent brahmin family and his personal name will be Ajita. Metteyya is evidently the name of his gotta. For eight thousand years he will live the household life in four palaces Sirivaddha, Vaddhamāna, Siddhattha and Candaka - his chief wife being Candamukhī and his son Brahmavaddhana. Having seen the four signs while on his way to the park, he will be dissatisfied with household life and will spend one week in practicing austerities. Then he will leave home, travelling in his palace and accompanied by a fourfold army, at the head of which will be eighty-four thousand brahmins and eighty four thousand Khattiya maidens. Among his followers will be Isidatta and Pūrana, two brothers, Jātimitta, Vijaya, Suddhika and Suddhanā, Sangha and Sanghā, Saddhara, Sudatta, Yasavatī and Visākhā, each with eighty four thousand companions. Together they will leave the household and arrive on the same day at the Bodhi tree. After the Enlightenment the Buddha will preach in Nāgavana and King Sankha will, later, ordain himself under him. Metteyya's father will be Subrahmā, chaplain to King Sankha, and his mother Brahmavatī. His chief disciples will be Asoka and Brahmadeva among monks, and Padumā and Sumanā among nuns. Sīha will be his personal attendant and his chief patrons Sumana, Sangha, Yasavatī and Sanghā. His Bodhi will be the Nāga tree. After the Buddha's death, his teachings will continue for one hundred and eighty thousand years.

According to the Mahāvamsa (Mhv.xxxii.81f.; see Mil.159), Kākavannatissa and Vihāramahādevī, father and mother of Dutthagāmani, will be Metteyya's parents, Dutthagāmani himself will be his chief disciple and Saddhātissa his second disciple, while Prince Sāli will be his son.

At the present time the future Buddha is living in the Tusita deva-world (Mhv.xxxii.73). There is a tradition that Nātha is the name of the future Buddha in the deva world.

The worship of the Bodhisatta Metteyya seems to have been popular in ancient Ceylon, and Dhātusena adorned an image of him with all the equipment of a king and ordained a guard for it within the radius of seven yojanas (Cv.xxxviii.68).

Dappula I. made a statue in honour of the future Buddha fifteen cubits high (Cv.xlv.62). It is believed that Metteyya spends his time in the deva-world, preaching the Dhamma to the assembled gods, and, in emulation of his example, King Kassapa V. used to recite the Abhidhamma in the assemblies of the monks (Cv.lii.47). Parakkamabāhu I. had three statues built in honour of Metteyya (Cv.lxxix.75), while Kittisirirājasīha erected one in the Rajata-vihāra and another in the cave above it (Cv.c.248,259). It is the wish of all Buddhists that they meet Metteyya Buddha, listen to his preaching and attain to Nibbāna under him. See, e.g., J.vi.594; MT. 687; DhSA.430.
Still this is a useless discossion. As Ajahn Chah states "If you wanna see Metteya don't practice the dhamma". Muhammad is a prophet from the Islam, it's another thing, another tradition.

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Re: MUHAMMAD (PBUH) IN BUDDHIST SCRIPTURES?

Post by oceanmen » Sun Jun 20, 2010 12:50 am

A good hearted and peaceful muslim is a very positive thing. They take their teachings on generosity very seriously, for example.

A bad muslim is a terrible thing. And the problem is that they reflect the original founder of the religion: Mohamed. 60% of the Quran is about war. Moderate people in the west assume Islam is a peaceful religion.

i beg to differ, i dont think you met the guy so how can you reflect him? how can anyone reflect him? the only think that can be reflected is how he was described in the so called "Hadith" which is not protected from corruption, manipulation and modification, hence it is not a realistic description of him, besides his role was not to be an example (as most muslims think) his role was to give the koran to the people,

....and that koran is not 60% about war - no idea where you got that from

i recall less than 8 of suras (of the 114 suras) speaking of "permision" to go defend yourself
with the following conditions:

1.your family is killed unjustly by an aggressor
2.you are driven out of your home by an aggressor
3.you are being treated unjustly by the aggressor

why are we accepting the french and english resistance movements in WW2 but we cant accept others to do so?
or are you ok with the Gaza Siege - not to mention the flotilla incident !!

:namaste:

Metta

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Re: MUHAMMAD (PBUH) IN BUDDHIST SCRIPTURES?

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Jun 20, 2010 1:49 am

oceanmen wrote:

i beg to differ, i dont think you met the guy so how can you reflect him? how can anyone reflect him? the only think that can be reflected is how he was described in the so called "Hadith" which is not protected from corruption, manipulation and modification, hence it is not a realistic description of him, besides his role was not to be an example (as most muslims think) his role was to give the koran to the people,
And is it is a myth to think that Koran is free from manipulation, editing and the like.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: MUHAMMAD (PBUH) IN BUDDHIST SCRIPTURES?

Post by oceanmen » Sun Jun 20, 2010 4:40 am

tiltbillings wrote:
oceanmen wrote:

i beg to differ, i dont think you met the guy so how can you reflect him? how can anyone reflect him? the only think that can be reflected is how he was described in the so called "Hadith" which is not protected from corruption, manipulation and modification, hence it is not a realistic description of him, besides his role was not to be an example (as most muslims think) his role was to give the koran to the people,
And is it is a myth to think that Koran is free from manipulation, editing and the like.

of course it is not a myth, but as he buddha said, do not belief anyone except your first hand experience
and that's not by judging the Koran without reading it in its original language -
or else it would be like reading shake-spear in Chinese...!! :namaste:

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Re: MUHAMMAD (PBUH) IN BUDDHIST SCRIPTURES?

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Jun 20, 2010 4:58 am

oceanmen wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:And is it is a myth to think that Koran is free from manipulation, editing and the like.

of course it is not a myth, but as he buddha said, do not belief anyone except your first hand experience
and that's not by judging the Koran without reading it in its original language -
or else it would be like reading shake-spear in Chinese...!!
I'll go with the recent scholarship on this question. There is no reason, however, to take unquestioned the pious Islamic belief that the Koran is exactly, without any alteration, as Mohammad wrote it. But even if it were, the question is: so? That hardly makes it true, and there is enough reason not to take it as being so.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: MUHAMMAD (PBUH) IN BUDDHIST SCRIPTURES?

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Jun 20, 2010 5:00 am

oceanmen wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:And is it is a myth to think that Koran is free from manipulation, editing and the like.

of course it is not a myth, but as he buddha said, do not belief anyone except your first hand experience
and that's not by judging the Koran without reading it in its original language -
or else it would be like reading shake-spear in Chinese...!!
I'll go with the recent scholarship on this question. There is no reason, however, to take unquestioned the pious Islamic belief that the Koran is exactly, without any alteration, as Mohammad wrote it. But even if it were, the question is: so? That hardly makes it true, and there is enough reason not to take it as being so.

And having to read it in its original language, that would be nice, but hardly necessary. Enough people have and have found it wanting. And argument like that cuts in every direction.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: MUHAMMAD (PBUH) IN BUDDHIST SCRIPTURES?

Post by oceanmen » Sun Jun 20, 2010 5:15 am

tiltbillings wrote:
oceanmen wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:And is it is a myth to think that Koran is free from manipulation, editing and the like.

of course it is not a myth, but as he buddha said, do not belief anyone except your first hand experience
and that's not by judging the Koran without reading it in its original language -
or else it would be like reading shake-spear in Chinese...!!
I'll go with the recent scholarship on this question. There is no reason, however, to take unquestioned the pious Islamic belief that the Koran is exactly, without any alteration, as Mohammad wrote it. But even if it were, the question is: so? That hardly makes it true, and there is enough reason not to take it as being so.

And having to read it in its original language, that would be nice, but hardly necessary. Enough people have and have found it wanting. And argument like that cuts in every direction.
And having to read it in its original language, that would be nice, but hardly necessary.
i beg to disagree once again, sadly even the most educated scholars, Muslims and non Muslims, Arab speakers, Westerners and others, have totally ignored the true meaning of the koran, and prefer to recite it as a form of singing without reflecting upon its meaning. Sadly, its true meaning has long been forgotten (even by the muslims themselves) because they are too busy studying the so called hadith (sayings of Mohamed) which are 90% not even in line with Koran....and are mostly fabrications that lead to more and more divisions, superstition and fanaticism....
not to mention the many interpretations of the Koran in all languages that are also not in line with the meaning of Koran either,
due to the subjective nature of translation work -

hence it must be read in Arabic only to digest the message -

and if you find it un-neccessary to read shakespear in English
and if you think that in shake-spear in Chinese language has the same power and meaning -
then that is your opinion and you are free to belief what you like

who ever agrees with you will probably find the same holds true about reading the koran in any language
and who ever does not agree with you, will put an effort to learn Arabic and read it in its original form
just as many learn Hebrew to read the Tora in its original form...
Enough people have and have found it wanting. And argument like that cuts in every direction.
Once again, do not belief anything i say or other people say, unless you do your own investigation -

:namaste:

lots of Metta

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Re: MUHAMMAD (PBUH) IN BUDDHIST SCRIPTURES?

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Jun 20, 2010 5:27 am

oceanmen wrote:i beg to disagree once again, sadly even the most educated scholars, Muslims and non Muslims, Arab speakers, Westerners and others, have totally ignored the true meaning of the koran,
That is so problematic on so many levels. True meaning: one person's true meaning is an other's heresy. This is especially true among the theistic religions of the Book.

There is enough good, current scholarship that confutes the claim of an unchanged, unaltered unedited Koran. As for having to read it in Arabic, why would an all loving, all knowing, all powerful god be so limiting in the truth it claims to wants is supposed creation to know, that requires that it be known only in such a limiting, limited way? A god like that is not a god I'd would want to know.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: MUHAMMAD (PBUH) IN BUDDHIST SCRIPTURES?

Post by cooran » Sun Jun 20, 2010 5:54 am

Hello tilt,

I think what was meant is that, just like the Pali scriptures, it is better to obtain the skills to read in the original language rather than a translation - if what you want is complete accuracy unflavoured by the mind of the translator.

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Re: MUHAMMAD (PBUH) IN BUDDHIST SCRIPTURES?

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Jun 20, 2010 5:59 am

cooran wrote:Hello tilt,

I think what was meant is that, just like the Pali scriptures, it is better to obtain the skills to read in the original language rather than a translation - if what you want is complete accuracy unflavoured by the mind of the translator.
It is a bit more than that with the claims made about the Koran by Islam and the need to read it in Arabic. But whether one reads it in Arabic, especially as a second language and centuries away from the original time of its compilation, there is always going to "flavoring" of what is read. And even for a native speaker, reading the Koran in Arabic is no guarantee that one is going to get at how the language was used and what was meant without a considerable historical apparatus annotating it virtually word by word.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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