The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Dexing
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by Dexing »

tiltbillings wrote:
Dexing wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Far better articles on Yogacara: What is and isn't Yogācāra and The Crux of the Yogåcåra Project
If you want to read something on Yogacara, best stick with the Yogacara texts or teachings in line with them, rather than reading Dan Lusthaus' personal imputations on the subject.
Lusthaus is a world class scholar whose work is highly regarded.
Herein lies the problem. Now you trust his word more than the Yogacara texts themselves.

Have you ever read the Yogacara texts, or is your knowledge of Yogacara mainly from Lusthaus?

:namaste:
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tiltbillings
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by tiltbillings »

Dexing wrote: [
Herein lies the problem. Now you trust his word more than the Yogacara texts themselves.
I'll trust his word far more than yours.
Have you ever read the Yogacara texts, or is your knowledge of Yogacara mainly from Lusthaus?
Yeah. Probably more than you have given that I have had access to unpublished translations made by scholars. Lusthaus' work is excellent and well reflects Vasubandhu and early Yogachara rather than the much later distortions of Yogachara that turn it into a philosophically indefensible idealism as you are presenting it.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Dexing
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by Dexing »

tiltbillings wrote:Probably more than you have given that I have had access to unpublished translations made by scholars.
:thinking:
rather than the much later distortions of Yogachara that turn it into a philosophically indefensible idealism as you are presenting it.
First, you have been misunderstanding what I'm presenting.
Second, you don't seem interested in discussing the topic.

I've been presenting points and backing them with scriptural references from both Mahayana and Theravada traditions to look at it more deeply.

Your attempt has not gone beyond; "you're wrong" and "this guy's right", accusing me of sect-bashing and playing "riddle me this" games. Oh and; "I'd be happy to show you that you're quite wrong about the Pali text, 'but first riddle me this'."

:namaste:
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Goofaholix
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by Goofaholix »

Dexing wrote: How on earth did you arrive at that conclusion? Rereading my own post I have no idea. Unless I misunderstood your original question.
I asked the question “If the characteristics are created by mind, and 1,000,000 people perceive a table and 99% of them (excepting those who are colour blind) perceive it as blue, why is it that they perceive the same characteristic each with their own minds?”

Rereading your reply I see you are saying that humans perceive the table as blue because of their collective kamma as human beings whereas we can’t really say how animals or devas perceive it because they have a different collective kamma. I think it’s safe to say that animals perceive it, for example, as I’ve never seen my dog walk through a table, (though maybe he just walks around it when I’m looking just to humour my collective kamma), don’t know about devas though..

Anyway, this sounds more plausible than my original interpretation of it.

So to back the truck up a bit, hopefully I’m not oversimplifying things too much, my understanding of your position is that what is unique about a Bodhisattva from your point of view is that he/she has come to a realisation that everything is illusion.

The more usual Mahayana definition is that a Bodhisattva is someone who has postponed his/her enlightenment in order to save all sentient beings. I’m not sure if this is still in the mix from your point of view because of course if everything is an illusion then there are no sentient beings to save anyway. Come to think of it everything is an illusion there is no Bodhisattva to be to have such a realisation anyway, nothing that wakes up and realises it was all an illusion.
So what do we understand about illusion? A magic trick could be an illusion, a mirage in the desert could be an illusion, a tv show could be an illusion (in that it’s not really happening in my room), a dream could be an illusion.

One of the most obvious characteristics of all these things that people would normally call illusion are that they have an illusee, there is somebody or something that is illused.

So my question is that if everything is an illusion then who or what is the illusee?
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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tiltbillings
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by tiltbillings »

Dexing wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Probably more than you have given that I have had access to unpublished translations made by scholars.
You doubt that?
I wrote:rather than the much later distortions of Yogachara that turn it into a philosophically indefensible idealism as you are presenting it.
A little history of Buddhist ideas might help.
First, you have been misunderstanding what I'm presenting.
Second, you don't seem interested in discussing the topic.
You are not discussing the topic; you are evangelizing. I have to repeat my questions to you and even then you do not fully address them, if you address them at all. As for understanding; if I do not, it likely has something to do with your poor ability to express your ideas, not to mention your missing the implications of the ideas you are expressing.
Your attempt has not gone beyond; "you're wrong" and "this guy's right", accusing me of sect-bashing and playing "riddle me this" games. Oh and; "I'd be happy to show you that you're quite wrong about the Pali text, 'but first riddle me this'."
[/quote]Before I respond in any detail to you, what I am trying to do is a straightforward, clear picture of your position, which seems to change as it is challenged, making your position look a little blurry.

You have had very knowledgeable individuals here point out serious issues with what you are presenting and you just blow them off.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Hoo
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by Hoo »

Has this thread turned into just a propaganda thread, an arguement about views?
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tiltbillings
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by tiltbillings »

Hoo wrote:Has this thread turned into just a propaganda thread, an arguement about views?
The introduction of an evangelical approach here makes actual discussion somewhat difficult.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Hoo
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by Hoo »

tiltbillings wrote:
Hoo wrote:Has this thread turned into just a propaganda thread, an arguement about views?
The introduction of an evangelical approach here makes actual discussion somewhat difficult.
Well said...in my military days I might have asked if the presented material is factual or counter-intelligence. It seems to fill up space without conveying much that's provable or that can be confirmed. Though the word "Theravada" is in the title, it seems to be just a statement of selected Mahayana beliefs, probably more suitable on the Dharma Wheel than here.

We just went through something else like that here, IMHO. Makes me wonder if someone has the forum targeted and is rolling in the resources as needed. I haven't been back long enough to see if that's true or not, but there's another forum that went through something like that - "experts" claiming to have superior beliefs/sources/proofs/etc. No one talks to them when they appear. Like all phenomena, they arise, they abide for a (silent) while and they pass away.
alan
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by alan »

I must have missed the page where Dexing proves that color, sounds, fragrance, etc. are subjectively created.
It is exactly this type of concept which lies beyond range. That is why you are unable to explain, and attempts to get through to you put everyone to grief.
alan
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by alan »

Hi Dexing. You've said you don't read books. Here is an excerpt from a book that is well worth reading, just in case you missed my earlier point. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
dhamma follower
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by dhamma follower »

Dexing wrote:
First, you have been misunderstanding what I'm presenting.
Second, you don't seem interested in discussing the topic.

I've been presenting points and backing them with scriptural references from both Mahayana and Theravada traditions to look at it more deeply.

Your attempt has not gone beyond; "you're wrong" and "this guy's right", accusing me of sect-bashing and playing "riddle me this" games. Oh and; "I'd be happy to show you that you're quite wrong about the Pali text, 'but first riddle me this'."

:namaste:
The Buddha Teaching is not only about showing texts, it is mostly about understanding. Understanding of the texts can dramatically change as your experiences deepen.

So far, your texts have not supported your position because they don't address the key points to your statement (gag, I'm not going to repeat them again!) . What is required for a discussion is an investigation into the meaning of what is being said, and that is mainly what other people here have been asking from you without getting adequate, if at all, replies.

Why cares about the trivial ? I wonder whether you really want to go to the core !
dhamma follower
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by dhamma follower »

Before I respond in any detail to you, what I am trying to do is a straightforward, clear picture of your position, which seems to change as it is challenged, making your position look a little blurry.
Indeed, this is another issue
Shonin
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by Shonin »

Dexing wrote:So "the All" is the sense organs and their objects. We have already seen that these objects (color, sound, fragrance, etc..) are subjectively created by consciousness. Some would like to suggest however that what stimulates these conscious experiences are some external objects.

That however would "lie beyond range". There is no grounds for such a statement.
The ontology of both 'exist' AND 'not exist' lie beyond range. 'Everything is an illusion' is a detour off the map. It's just a bunch of thinking.
Dexing wrote:Later (Mahayana) teachings then explicitly state this and explain it in very minute detail.
Those few teachings which do so are speculating about ontology which as you already said is 'beyond range'. It's a mistake.
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Ben
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by Ben »

MODERATOR NOTE

After some consideration, I've decided to shut down this thread.
We seem to be going around in circles and any relationship to the original thread subject: 'the Bodhisattva ideal in Theravada' seems to have been lost long ago.
I'm happy to review the decision for closing this thread if members wish to contact me or my colleagues via pm.
kind regards

Ben
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