A. L. De Silva's "Beyond Belief"

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Dhammakid
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A. L. De Silva's "Beyond Belief"

Post by Dhammakid »

Hello All,
I've been reading De Silva's "Beyond Belief: A Buddhist Critique of Fundamentalist Christianity" and find it highly informative and useful in discussions with Christians who insist on arguing with my beliefs. I'm wondering if anyone else has read it and what you think of it.

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/beyond-belief02.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: A. L. De Silva's "Beyond Belief"

Post by Mukunda »

Dhammakid wrote:Hello All,
I've been reading De Silva's "Beyond Belief: A Buddhist Critique of Fundamentalist Christianity" and find it highly informative and useful in discussions with Christians who insist on arguing with my beliefs.
How can there be an argument for them to insist on if you don't participate? :thinking:
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Re: A. L. De Silva's "Beyond Belief"

Post by Goofaholix »

I agree with Mukunda, if they want to argue then that's their problem, you don't have to buy into it.

They are coming from the view that Buddhism is a direct competitor to Christianity just because they are both world religions. I don't agree, I think they are trying to achieve quite different things therefore arguing one against the other is meaningless.

It would be like an accountant arguing with my beliefs because they don't conform to the fundamentals of accounting, or a musician because they don't conform to rules on tone, pitch, melody etc.
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Kim OHara
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Re: A. L. De Silva's "Beyond Belief"

Post by Kim OHara »

If you really have to participate in fundamentalists' kinds of arguments, Da Silva provides useful ammunition for you. But it's better to avoid dispute altogether in the first place, and better to avoid fighting on their terms in the second place: they are likely to have had more practice than you.
You could try offering to attend a church service if they will go to your meditation group with you first ...
:juggling:

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Re: A. L. De Silva's "Beyond Belief"

Post by Kenshou »

Kim O'Hara wrote:
You could try offering to attend a church service if they will go to your meditation group with you first ...
I ain't goin' tah no pagan devil-worshippin' boodist ritual ceremony, no siree!
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Re: A. L. De Silva's "Beyond Belief"

Post by bodom »

I like Hui-Nengs words on the matter:
"With those who are sympathetic Let us have discussion on Buddhism. As for those whose point of view differs from ours Let us treat them politely and thus make them happy. (But) disputes are alien to our School, For they are incompatible with its doctrine. To be bigoted and to argue with others in disregard of this rule Is to subjects one's Essence of Mind to the bitterness of mundane existence."
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Kim OHara
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Re: A. L. De Silva's "Beyond Belief"

Post by Kim OHara »

Kenshou wrote:
Kim O'Hara wrote:
You could try offering to attend a church service if they will go to your meditation group with you first ...
I ain't goin' tah no pagan devil-worshippin' boodist ritual ceremony, no siree!
Of course - but it shows a willingness to acknowledge their beliefs and, without being argumentative, gives them a choice of giving up or continuing the conversation from the weak position of having refused to show a matching tolerance.

It's all hypothetical to me, though. Aussies are pretty laid back about everything except, in some cases, State of Origin football.

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Re: A. L. De Silva's "Beyond Belief"

Post by Bankei »

A.L. De Silva is none other than the Australian monk Dhammika. Allegedly written under a pseudonym because of the potential backlash in places like Indonesia. (according to a review of the book by Prof Garry Trompf)

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Re: A. L. De Silva's "Beyond Belief"

Post by Ben »

Hi Kourtney

I just downloaded it and it looks good. Its resonant of a Burmese (I think) publication which I read years ago that was a critique of Christianity. Memory is beginning to fade...
I recommend to you the following publications:
A letter to a Christian Nation: http://www.amazon.com/Letter-Christian- ... 417&sr=8-1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
End of Faith: http://www.amazon.com/End-Faith-Religio ... gy_b_img_b" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
both by Sam Harris. A letter to a Christian nation is essentially End of Faith in 90 pages.
kind regards

Ben
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Kokoro
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Re: A. L. De Silva's "Beyond Belief"

Post by Kokoro »

I consider De Silva's book to be not so much for providing one with ammo in case a group of fundamentalist Christians appear and push their religion, but rather to provide comfort and assurance to Buddhists who perhaps may have been Christian and are now having some doubt, or perhaps for Christians who are now having doubt in ther religion and are looking to the Dhamma for the Truth.
Regardless, even if it were proven it was written specifically for that purpose (rebuking Christians) I would approach it in a similar manner as one who receives instruction in martial arts, you have it but wish never to use it.

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Re: A. L. De Silva's "Beyond Belief"

Post by Dhammakid »

Hey Everyone,
Thanks so much for the responses.

I do agree that it's better to not engage in debate, and I try very hard to do that whenever possible. But De Silva's book is great in case I'm given no choice, which, luckily, isn't often.

I love Sam Harris' works. I haven't read his complete works yet, but I've read excerpts and have seen interviews and I've loved it all. I will definitely read "Letter" as soon as I get the chance.

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Re: A. L. De Silva's "Beyond Belief"

Post by pilgrim »

We should avoid arguments, but the book makes a good point in the closing paragraph of the Preface:

"Some Buddhists may object to a book like this, believing that a gentle and tolerant religion like Buddhism should refrain from criticizing other. This is certainly not what the Buddha himself taught. In the Mahaparinibbana Sutta he said that his disciples should be able to "Teach the Dhamma, declare it, establish it, expound it, analyze it, make it clear, and be able by means of the Dhamma to refute false teachings that have arisen." Subjecting a point of view to careful scrutiny and criticism has an important part to play in helping to winnow truth from falsehood so that we can be in a better position to choose between "the two and sixty contending sects." Criticism of other religions only becomes inappropriate when it is based on a deliberate misrepresentation or when it descends into an exercise in ridicule and name-calling. I hope I have avoided doing this."
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Re: A. L. De Silva's "Beyond Belief"

Post by Shawn Cahill »

This book is honest it admitting that it's purpose is to criticize Christianity, and promote Buddhism.
I am a man of few words, but could write an entire book pointing out all the mistakes in this book.
As I began reading the book I recognized the author was using the same old arguments that atheists have been making for years, and yet they never gives them any credit in the book.
The Buddhist author is also an atheist, and as such they become the judge or what is evidence, logical, good and bad.
Just a few things I will comment on is that they say the teachings of Jesus taught them to be a better Buddhist. This may be true but only if they selectively chose what teachings of Jesus to follow, as Jesus obviously recognized there is a creator.
One one page De Silva says they cannot prove God does not exist, and just two pages later (page 8) they state it can be be proven.
De Silva claims to be a former Christian who lives outside of the United States. Either the author is lying about this, or they were an extremely ignorant Christian.
For example he claims that God is all loving, while the Bible multiple times describes how God hates wickedness.
Most of the time when representing Christianity he references what Christians have said, rather than quoting the Bible, and makes judgments upon that. Then later on in defending Buddhism they say "let us not judge a religion by those who fail to practice it". Is a similar way if Christians tell you something that goes contrary to Christianity (the teachings of Christ), you don't judge the Christian faith by those who misrepresent it.
In another area De Silva says how God is not patient, kind, etc, because he judges.If a parent punishes their children for doing wrong, does this likewise mean they cannot be good and kind? Obviously not.
I doubt that De Silva was a Christian (though they may have believed they were) because they appeared to demand answers, instead of trusting in the character of God.
In the end of the book De Silva suggests books for those who want to learn about both faiths. All the books about Buddhism are for supportive, while all the books about Christianity are critical. This shows a sad obvious bias.
There is much more I could have said, and am willing to discuss any of it with anyone who so desires. If so look me up: Shawn Cahill.
In summation the author accurately depicts Christianity only about 20% of the time, so is hardly a good source to learn about it, and is only good for learning old atheist arguments against it.
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Re: A. L. De Silva's "Beyond Belief"

Post by ieee23 »

Sounds like an interesting book. Thanks for posting!
Whatever a bhikkhu frequently thinks and ponders upon, that will become the inclination of his mind. - MN 19
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Re: A. L. De Silva's "Beyond Belief"

Post by ieee23 »

Mukunda wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2010 7:06 pm
Dhammakid wrote:Hello All,
I've been reading De Silva's "Beyond Belief: A Buddhist Critique of Fundamentalist Christianity" and find it highly informative and useful in discussions with Christians who insist on arguing with my beliefs.
How can there be an argument for them to insist on if you don't participate? :thinking:
:anjali:
There were a number of bible thumpers ( and similar, but fewer people for other religions ) on my campus when I was in college. I discovered that if I told them I was an atheist they would pester me the most, but if I told them I had a religion they would almost immediately leave me alone.
Whatever a bhikkhu frequently thinks and ponders upon, that will become the inclination of his mind. - MN 19
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