With right awareness any object is right object

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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mikenz66
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Re: With right awareness any object is right object

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Kenshou,
Kenshou wrote: My thoughts exactly. These discussions are how understanding is refined, that's why I even bother, and I think we've been pretty civil.
Yes, I think this is actually much more useful than most other discussions... :sage:
Kenshou wrote: However, when it gets down to dismantling my personal craving and clinging, I actually do find it useful sometimes to actively engage in the content (when the content is stress-related, that is, not all random mental wandering), to find the root cause of it. I do not try to simply engage in mental proliferation, but to analyze the issue in terms of the 4 noble truths and the origination and cessation of stress. I find this very effective.
Yes, I agree, this sort of thing can be helpful. The question I have (which I don't really know the answer to) is whether this is just a necessary step to get the mind calm enough or whether it is really is part of the insight process.

Whatever the answer is, it is certainly worth exploring...

Best Wishes,
Mike
Kenshou
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Re: With right awareness any object is right object

Post by Kenshou »

The question I have (which I don't really know the answer to) is whether this is just a necessary step to get the mind calm enough or whether it is really is part of the insight process.
Aha.

Well, the answer to that depends on the wider context of your practice and goals and the ideas underlying them, eh?

In my view, if it dissolves craving and dukkha and weakens the fetters, it is legitimate insight, regardless of how you get it.
dhamma follower
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Re: With right awareness any object is right object

Post by dhamma follower »

Kenshou wrote:
The question I have (which I don't really know the answer to) is whether this is just a necessary step to get the mind calm enough or whether it is really is part of the insight process.
Aha.

Well, the answer to that depends on the wider context of your practice and goals and the ideas underlying them, eh?

In my view, if it dissolves craving and dukkha and weakens the fetters, it is legitimate insight, regardless of how you get it.
IMO, this kind of insight belongs to cinta wisdom, the second level. Bhavanna level is next
I agree that cinta wisdom is also good to develop and can be a help for advancement. However excessive cinta wisdom can give rise to proliferation and restlessness.
There are some differences between cinta and bhavana panna: with cinta panna, thingking is still involved. There's some flash of reality but it's too short, one falls back immediately to the thingking process and identifies with it. With bhavana panna, there's only bare awareness of the process, so understanding is more clear, more powerful. Vipassana panna is a step further, where experiences of the three marks erase attachments caused by the deluded mind.
So now it seems easier to agree that, for vipassana panna to occur, the objects of awareness must be paramatha.
All levels of wisdom are valid and useful, but the degree of impacts differ. So it is good to understand the context/ conditions for each kind to occur.

D.F
Srotapanna
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Re: With right awareness any object is right object

Post by Srotapanna »

Kenshou wrote:But the packages of mental activity and association, which I choose to label a concept, do arise and pass away. The parts change and fluctuate, resulting in a change in the overall package, if you choose to look at it from that perspective as I have. I think that's the main thing, it is indeed a question of perspective, entirely.

It is a matter of perspective weather you choose to look at the "concept" in terms of the whole or it's parts. Looking at it in terms of it's parts and leads to the view that it doesn't really exist, since it is indeed just a group of fluctuating parts. I understand this position. However I personally see no harm in looking at the overall package and deciding to call it a concept for the sake of convenience. I just don't see the value in splitting hairs over it, because I'm not concerned with what is or isn't paramattha. That's all there is to it. To put this in other words, I think it's just that I prefer to use conventional terms sometimes. That's all that's going on here. And since when I attempt to look at the process of a concept, in reality I'm looking at a package of aggregate activity and whatnot, it doesn't really matter what I call it.
Srotapanna wrote:Note 9th paragraph: http://www.dharmaweb.org/index.php/Vipa" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... th_(Talk_4)
Link seems to be broken.

(that is there's no text on the page, though the page itself does load)
Hi Kenshou,
Hm, don't know what happened there.
Anyway, ...in the last sections, section 5 perhaps, of the Satipatthana Sutta the Buddha refers to things which are not objects in the general sense.
:namaste:
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Alex123
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Re: With right awareness any object is right object

Post by Alex123 »

An interesting quote about concepts

“Beings percipient of what can be expressed, Become established in what can be expressed. Not fully understanding what can be expressed, They come under the yoke of Death. But having fully understood what can be expressed, One does not conceive ‘one who expresses.’ For that does not exist for him By which one could even speak of him.

SN 1.20 (10) Samiddhi
Perceiving in terms of signs, beings take a stand on signs. Not fully comprehending signs, they come into the bonds of death. But fully comprehending signs, one doesn't construe a signifier. Touching liberation with the heart, the state of peace unsurpassed, consummate in terms of signs, peaceful, enjoying the peaceful state, judicious, an attainer-of wisdom makes use of classifications but can't be classified - Iti 63
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... l#fn-063.1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
beeblebrox
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Re: With right awareness any object is right object

Post by beeblebrox »

Srotapanna wrote:Hi all,

Note 9th paragraph: http://www.dharmaweb.org/index.php/Vipa ... tfold_Path_(Talk_4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)
I fixed the link --> here. (The last parenthesis was left out by the forum software for some reason.)
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Alex123
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Re: With right awareness any object is right object

Post by Alex123 »

With right awareness, can observed akusala dhamma be as useful for development of understanding (paññā) as kusala dhamma?

For ex:
Can citta with greed (lobha-mūla-citta) be a valid object of insight as good as alobha-citta?
dhamma follower
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Re: With right awareness any object is right object

Post by dhamma follower »

Alex123 wrote:With right awareness, can observed akusala dhamma be as useful for development of understanding (paññā) as kusala dhamma?

For ex:
Can citta with greed (lobha-mūla-citta) be a valid object of insight as good as alobha-citta?
Definitely yes. As one famous Burmese Sayadaw has put it: "the more defilements we can observe, the more woods we get." There are just so few alobha-citta arising compared to lobha-mula-citta...
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