tibetan buddhism rocks!

[Zom]

I would distinguish between Buddha teachings and buddhism. These two are not the same

[PeterB]

I would distinguish between Buddha teachings and buddhism. These two are not the same

True. And Vajrayana and Theravada both have their origin in the Buddhas teachings. The Theravada is more obviously and directly the result of those teachings imo.

[dhammastudier]

ok guys a lot of intelligent points! thanx very much.

in the end though what you are saying is that as long as a religion has the core buddhist teachings it is buddhism, EVEN IF THE OTHER TEACHINGS OF THAT RELIGION CONTRADICT THEM. this means that if a religion taught that life was joy, people should be mindless and always multi-tasking, violence is ok, wrong speech is good, things arise independently, etc. that if they then adopted the opposite buddhist ideals but still taught these opposing views then it is ok to call this buddhism. think about it. buddha said get away from hindu multi-god ideas and other rituals. tibet has multi god ideas and similar rituals. opposite even though they also teach the other stuff. also non-violence to animals. tibetan buddhism has sacrificial rituals in which animals are killed as offerings to their gods. so even if you're a tibetan buddhist practicing the core values you are screwing up your karma by killing animals so these opposite teachings are bad for practitioners no matter how you look at it.

[dhammastudier]

i clearly stated that i really like the religion.

Accusing a Buddhist sect of misrepresenting themselves as Buddhists and then saying you enjoy their mythology is a bit of a backhanded compliment.

i just want to hear people's opinions on this. i'm not trying to be mean .

I'm sorry if I misunderstood your intentions, but the op does read like a list of declarative statements against Vajrayana (which seems to be confirmed by a thread title declaring "vajrayana is NOT buddhism").

that doesn't mean i don't like it. it means i don't like misrepresentation and false titles. get over it. leave me alone.

[PeterB]

Zac where did you get the idea that Tibetan Buddhists kill animals...they dont. I think you may be confused with Nepalese Hindu rituals.

[Bhikkhu Pesala]

If you posted these truths on a forum like E-Sangha where the admins are Vajirayana followers you would find your posts censored, and get suspended or banned — that was my experience. This topic was removed: Nanayana — Many and Various Doctrines when I posted it there, and other posts critical of Pure Land or Mahāyāna Suttas were deleted.

However, I don't see much mileage in discussing this on a forum like this where most practitioners follow the Theravāda school.

In Theravāda Buddhism too you can find astrology, caste system, holy threads, spirit houses, and deva worship that are not what I would call orthodox Buddhism either. Again, there is not much mileage in discussing such corruptions of the Dhamma.

The Buddha's advice in the Mahāparinibbāna Sutta (IIRC) if others speak what is not Dhamma is to neither praise, nor to criticise what was wrongly said, but just to teach Dhamma.

[sukhamanveti]

ok guys a lot of intelligent points! thanx very much.

in the end though what you are saying is that as long as a religion has the core buddhist teachings it is buddhism, EVEN IF THE OTHER TEACHINGS OF THAT RELIGION CONTRADICT THEM. this means that if a religion taught that life was joy, people should be mindless and always multi-tasking, violence is ok, wrong speech is good, things arise independently, etc. that if they then adopted the opposite buddhist ideals but still taught these opposing views then it is ok to call this buddhism. think about it. buddha said get away from hindu multi-god ideas and other rituals. tibet has multi god ideas and similar rituals. opposite even though they also teach the other stuff. also non-violence to animals. tibetan buddhism has sacrificial rituals in which animals are killed as offerings to their gods. so even if you're a tibetan buddhist practicing the core values you are screwing up your karma by killing animals so these opposite teachings are bad for practitioners no matter how you look at it.

I don't think that anyone is saying this at all. Tibetan Buddhism agrees that there is dukkha, that violence is wrong (although it makes exceptions in extreme circumstances), that wrong speech is wrong, that everything is a dependent arising, etc. Tibetan Buddhists condemn animal sacrifice. (They vocally opposed the recent Hindu sacrifice in Nepal, which for some reason Westerners keep associating with Tibetan Buddhism. See http://www.phayul.com/news/article.aspx?id=26034" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ) These are all "core" issues. I think that what we are saying is that, if we can agree on all of the important issues, the fundamentals (not Self, impermanence, Three Jewels, sila, etc.), then we are probably all Buddhists. Peripheral issues, like whether buddhas remain active after death, are probably not sufficient to call something unBuddhist.

[tiltbillings]

Zac,

Before going about dismissing Tibetan Buddhism as not being Buddhism, read through this book: The Jewel Ornament of Liberation, which is a Mahayana/Vajrayana interpretation of the Buddha-Dhamma.

[Ngawang Drolma.]

The Buddha's advice in the Mahāparinibbāna Sutta (IIRC) if others speak what is not Dhamma is to neither praise, nor to criticise what was wrongly said, but just to teach Dhamma.

This seems to simplify things quite a bit. Nice!

And I agree with everything Peter has written.

Best,
Laura

[dhammastudier]

i give up. everyone seems to be very deeply invested in the vajrayana faith and i didn't mean to offend anyone. sorry if i came off wrong. tibetan buddhism is a beautiful thing and should be cherished. which i said in my original statement but a lot of people still thought i was being mean for some reason, as if saying something was not buddhism was an insult when really it doesn't mean much of anything. i literally said i love the religion but think it should be called bon because it's more bon than buddhism and everyone took that as some horrible statement. hinduism shares as many similarities as tibetan buddhism with theravada buddhism and none of you think it should be called buddhism as well? i think hinduism is a much more valid candidate as it is closer to theravada buddhism than tibetan buddhism is.

none the less i see the error of my ways and i accept that tibetan buddhism is the same as the buddha's original teachings. i just figured theravada people would agree that the most way out there mahayana system was not entirely valid from a theravada stand point and i was interested to see what people thought about how this came about and what it meant for the world since it is one of the most wide spread systems.

theravada practice is rare in comparison to mahayana and by definition is the belief in specifically the buddha's teachings from the tripitaka without corruption or influence from other sources so it would only be logical to think that people practicing this would have thoughts on the validity of the title of an ancient religion that adopted buddhism but is very very different and unique.

i was wrong, you guys are right, teaching a totally different set of beliefs that are different from the theravada (except for some core similarities) is the same as the theravada. in fact since this is true why are all of us on a theravada site if it's all the same? why not talk about these things we agree upon on a mahayana site?

[Mukunda]

Well, in reality, not all Tibetan Buddhists practice Vajrayana. In particular, the Gelug order emphasizes a thorough understanding of Sutrayana and a firm foundation in bodhicitta and shunyata prior to practicing Varjrayana. I have studied under the guidance a Gelug Geshe, and found no significant differences in teachings. For the most part, doctrinal differences are about interpretation and emphasis on particular doctrine. My preference is the Theravada, but I have met excellent Tibetan Dharma teachers who have really helped me further my practice.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

This topic has been edited and butchered to the point where I don't know what it's about.

The original post seems to have been retracted, and with it, any direction or focus for the topic.

On that basis, I'm going to close this topic as there seems to be no possible benefit that could come from it now.

If someone wants to start a new topic to explore particular issues raised here, then please do... just keep it specific, focused, in the right sub-forum, and in alignment with the Terms of Service.

Thanks for your understanding.

Metta,
Retro.