Hello
I wanted to ask what is the role of the meditative state of concentration without object in Theravada. Is it mentioned in the suttas? What is its purpose? How is it achieved? Zazen AFAIK is a way of cultivating this state, but I don't know if it's the right method. Something like going into jhana and then droping the object would be a easier way than the zazen aproach; at least that's what I think.
Metta
concentration without object
- Modus.Ponens
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concentration without object
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
- tiltbillings
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Re: concentration without object
Are you referring to shikantaza?Modus.Ponens wrote:Hello
I wanted to ask what is the role of the meditative state of concentration without object in Theravada. Is it mentioned in the suttas? What is its purpose? How is it achieved? Zazen AFAIK is a way of cultivating this state, but I don't know if it's the right method. Something like going into jhana and then droping the object would be a easier way than the zazen aproach; at least that's what I think.
Metta
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: concentration without object
Animitto Sutta: The Signless SN 40.9
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.
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- Modus.Ponens
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Re: concentration without object
I had to look in wikipedia what that is and yes that is what I meant. The method it seems (I'm not well informed about this so correct me if I'm wrong) is to try to have no thoughts. is it a good method? it seems to me like an ilusorily direct way of getting into this state.
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
- Modus.Ponens
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Re: concentration without object
So if I understand it correctly, Moggallana attained nibbana while in this state?bodom wrote:Animitto Sutta: The Signless SN 40.9
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
- tiltbillings
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Re: concentration without object
Well, it is not to try to have no thoughts; it is, rather, not to be fixed on any one thing. You cannot have concentration or consciousness with an object, but the object can changed very, very rapidly. It is what is called moment-to-moment concentration or bare attention in vipassana practice.Modus.Ponens wrote:I had to look in wikipedia what that is and yes that is what I meant. The method it seems (I'm not well informed about this so correct me if I'm wrong) is to try to have no thoughts. is it a good method? it seems to me like an ilusorily direct way of getting into this state.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: concentration without object
No, it isn't about having no thoughts. It is remaining anchored in the reality of the present moment, yet with an open, allowing awareness rather than a narrow, focussed one. Phenomena (including thoughts) are allowed to appear, change and disappear, without identification.Modus.Ponens wrote:I had to look in wikipedia what that is and yes that is what I meant. The method it seems (I'm not well informed about this so correct me if I'm wrong) is to try to have no thoughts. is it a good method? it seems to me like an ilusorily direct way of getting into this state.
"The signless concentration of heart." sounds much the same. Mahamudra and Dzogchen meditation is similar too.
Re: concentration without object
In actuality Mahamudra and probably Dzogchen, are the same...what distinguishes them is the mythological constructs around them like "empowerments ". Essentially they are bare attention practices .
- Modus.Ponens
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Re: concentration without object
So the method to get there is to just trying remain fully aware of what's happening? I thought the method to get there was to try to have no thoughts because in karate dojos, the instructions for meditation are these: to try to have no thoughts.
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
Re: concentration without object
Suzukis comment about thoughts was "when they come in the front door let them go out the back, dont invite them for tea." Thats a paraphrase.
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig
Re: concentration without object
No, but the idea that Zen is about 'having no thoughts' is a popular myth. Thoughts come and go, without being suppressed or chased.Modus.Ponens wrote:So the method to get there is to just trying remain fully aware of what's happening? I thought the method to get there was to try to have no thoughts because in karate dojos, the instructions for meditation are these: to try to have no thoughts.
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Re: concentration without object
An expression borrowed from Krishnamurti - choieless awareness - has been taken over by Western vipassana teachers, fits here.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: concentration without object
This style of practice is quite common these days in the insight meditation and theravada communities, particularly in the West.
However the phrase "concentration without object" is a bit of an oxymoron, Awareness is a better term.
However the phrase "concentration without object" is a bit of an oxymoron, Awareness is a better term.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
Re: concentration without object
I've practiced 'choiceless awareness' and shikantaza and they are essentially the same, except that in Zen they are more strict about how you sit.tiltbillings wrote:An expression borrowed from Krishnamurti - choieless awareness - has been taken over by Western vipassana teachers, fits here.
Re: concentration without object
As in the link bodom gave "Animitto Sutta: The Signless" the goal is "great super-knowledge".Modus.Ponens wrote:Hello
I wanted to ask what is the role of the meditative state of concentration without object in Theravada. Is it mentioned in the suttas? What is its purpose?
Yes, I agree. As the sutta stated the object is droped after reaching the "sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception".How is it achieved? Zazen AFAIK is a way of cultivating this state, but I don't know if it's the right method. Something like going into jhana and then droping the object would be a easier way than the zazen aproach; at least that's what I think.
Concentration without an object (signless concentration) in Theravada is very different from the "bare attention" or mindfulness or trying to remain fully aware of what's happening (these are known in Theravada, too, of course). It is neither insight with concentration on a stable object (such as breath) nor insight with an object changing from moment to moment (momentary concentration as in Mahasi method).