non-violence in extreme cases.

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Alex123
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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Post by Alex123 » Thu May 27, 2010 12:16 am

bodom wrote:
Im gonna take a stab in the dark and say you dont have children?

:anjali:

Right. But in any case, it is better not to have attachement to anything. Life sucks and if anything to expect, then it is dukkha. The more you have, the more is there to lose.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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bodom
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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Post by bodom » Thu May 27, 2010 12:27 am

Alex123 wrote:
bodom wrote:
Im gonna take a stab in the dark and say you dont have children?

:anjali:

Right. But in any case, it is better not to have attachement to anything. Life sucks and if anything to expect, then it is dukkha. The more you have, the more is there to lose.
Of course. But my daughter IS my kamma, my responsibility. It is beyond this life for me to give up attachment to her. I am practicing for stream entry in this life as this does not require the complete abandonment of all sense pleasures. I am commited to the household for this life. Hopefully in my next I have the good Kamma to hear the Dhamma and ordain before I have too many responsibilities.

:anjali:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With no struggling, no thinking,
the mind, still,
will see cause and effect
vanishing in the Void.
Attached to nothing, letting go:
Know that this is the way
to allay all stress.

- Upasika Kee Nanayan

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Dan74
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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Post by Dan74 » Thu May 27, 2010 12:45 am

Alex123 wrote:
bodom wrote:
Im gonna take a stab in the dark and say you dont have children?

:anjali:

Right. But in any case, it is better not to have attachement to anything. Life sucks and if anything to expect, then it is dukkha. The more you have, the more is there to lose.
Running away from life is contrary to Buddhadhamma. Whatever our responsibilities are, whatever our environment is, this is our kamma, this is where we practice and develop brahma-viharas. Developing aversion to life, feelings and responsibilities is a way of nihilism, an escapist fantasy that leads to a dead end rather than awakening, which always faces the here-and-now directly. Engaging fully, mindfully, with a mind clear, holding nothing back, is how we see through the delusion, how we develop the brahmaviharas, the factors conducive to awakening and finally turn towards practice with 100% commitment.
_/|\_

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Ben
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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Post by Ben » Thu May 27, 2010 12:57 am

Mukunda wrote:If you already have the gun, that speaks quite a bit of your mind set.
I don't think so. There are many people who have guns, and in my case - bows, who use them for target shooting.
As there are many collectors of weapons who never take them out of their climate controlled environment to fire them at sentient beings.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

Mukunda
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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Post by Mukunda » Thu May 27, 2010 1:10 am

Ben wrote:
Mukunda wrote:If you already have the gun, that speaks quite a bit of your mind set.
I don't think so. There are many people who have guns, and in my case - bows, who use them for target shooting.
As there are many collectors of weapons who never take them out of their climate controlled environment to fire them at sentient beings.
The primary of purpose of weapons is to harm or kill other beings. Even though there may be secondary purposes (i.e. target practice, collecting), I fail to see the logic of one committed to not harming other beings being attracted to implements of death for any purpose. Target practice can be practiced using darts, bean bags, etc, and collecting is wide open to almost anything.

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Alex123
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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Post by Alex123 » Thu May 27, 2010 1:16 am

Dan74 wrote: Running away from life is contrary to Buddhadhamma. Whatever our responsibilities are, whatever our environment is, this is our kamma, this is where we practice and develop brahma-viharas. Developing aversion to life, feelings and responsibilities is a way of nihilism, an escapist fantasy that leads to a dead end rather than awakening, which always faces the here-and-now directly. Engaging fully, mindfully, with a mind clear, holding nothing back, is how we see through the delusion, how we develop the brahmaviharas, the factors conducive to awakening and finally turn towards practice with 100% commitment.

Running away from existence IS BUDDHA DHAMMA. Samsara is tough and rotten to the core... It is like a sinking ship, a burning house. Some people choose to escape it.


Just as a tiny bit of faeces has a bad smell, so I do not recommend even a tiny bit of existence, not even for so long as a fingersnap. (AN 1, 18)

A simile might help. A person born in a harsh prison, raised in that prison, who has spent all their time in the prison, can only know prison life. They don't even suspect that anything beyond their prison can exist. So they make the best of prison. Those who think positively, because they have gone to prison seminars, begin to think that the harsh prison is instead a wonderful place. They even compose songs like "All jails bright and beautiful ... the good Lord made them all"! Others get involved with social service, compassionately decorating the prison cells of others. When someone gets tortured or otherwise punished in jail, they think something has gone wrong and look for someone to blame. If someone suggests that it is the very nature of jail to be suffering, then they are dismissed as a pessimist and told to "Get a life!". One full moon night, a prisoner discovers a door leading out of the jail and goes through. Only then does he realize that jail was inherently suffering and you can't make it otherwise. He goes back to tell his fellow prisoners. Most don't believe him. They can't even imagine anything other than their jail. When he says that the jail is suffering and the cessation of imprisonment is happiness, he is accused by one and all of escapism.

Sometimes people rebuke me saying "You monks are just trying to escape from the real world!".

I reply "Well done! At last someone else has understood Buddhism!"

What's wrong with escapism, especially when one realises that the real world is the harsh prison

http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... NATION.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Ben
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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Post by Ben » Thu May 27, 2010 1:27 am

Mukunda wrote:
Ben wrote:
Mukunda wrote:If you already have the gun, that speaks quite a bit of your mind set.
I don't think so. There are many people who have guns, and in my case - bows, who use them for target shooting.
As there are many collectors of weapons who never take them out of their climate controlled environment to fire them at sentient beings.
The primary of purpose of weapons is to harm or kill other beings.
I would say it depends on the intention of the person using the implement.
Mukunda wrote:I fail to see the logic of one committed to not harming other beings being attracted to implements of death for any purpose.
Its your baggage, not mine.
Go into any kitchen and you will find a myriad of implements of death - you'll find them in the knife draw. And I'm sure you can use any number of daily objects as implements of death. How many people get killed each year from being belted by a hammer, or a wrench, or intentionally run over by a car. They are also objects that are used as weapons. Should we stop using them too? Or is it just the big bad target shooters who have questionable ethics, kammic load and poor judgement??
Mukunda wrote: Target practice can be practiced using darts, bean bags, etc, and collecting is wide open to almost anything.
Quite so, but one cannot hit a 120cm target from 90 metres with a bean bag or a dart. Not only that, they are not olympic sports.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

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Dan74
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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Post by Dan74 » Thu May 27, 2010 1:35 am

Alex123 wrote:
Dan74 wrote: Running away from life is contrary to Buddhadhamma. Whatever our responsibilities are, whatever our environment is, this is our kamma, this is where we practice and develop brahma-viharas. Developing aversion to life, feelings and responsibilities is a way of nihilism, an escapist fantasy that leads to a dead end rather than awakening, which always faces the here-and-now directly. Engaging fully, mindfully, with a mind clear, holding nothing back, is how we see through the delusion, how we develop the brahmaviharas, the factors conducive to awakening and finally turn towards practice with 100% commitment.

Running away from existence IS BUDDHA DHAMMA. Samsara is tough and rotten to the core... It is like a sinking ship, a burning house. Some people choose to escape it.


Just as a tiny bit of faeces has a bad smell, so I do not recommend even a tiny bit of existence, not even for so long as a fingersnap. (AN 1, 18)

A simile might help. A person born in a harsh prison, raised in that prison, who has spent all their time in the prison, can only know prison life. They don't even suspect that anything beyond their prison can exist. So they make the best of prison. Those who think positively, because they have gone to prison seminars, begin to think that the harsh prison is instead a wonderful place. They even compose songs like "All jails bright and beautiful ... the good Lord made them all"! Others get involved with social service, compassionately decorating the prison cells of others. When someone gets tortured or otherwise punished in jail, they think something has gone wrong and look for someone to blame. If someone suggests that it is the very nature of jail to be suffering, then they are dismissed as a pessimist and told to "Get a life!". One full moon night, a prisoner discovers a door leading out of the jail and goes through. Only then does he realize that jail was inherently suffering and you can't make it otherwise. He goes back to tell his fellow prisoners. Most don't believe him. They can't even imagine anything other than their jail. When he says that the jail is suffering and the cessation of imprisonment is happiness, he is accused by one and all of escapism.

Sometimes people rebuke me saying "You monks are just trying to escape from the real world!".

I reply "Well done! At last someone else has understood Buddhism!"

What's wrong with escapism, especially when one realises that the real world is the harsh prison

http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... NATION.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
And yet, Ajahn Brahm refers to himself as "the happy monk," cracking jokes almost non-stop and exuding ease and contentment. What's it about, do you think?
_/|\_

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Alex123
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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Post by Alex123 » Thu May 27, 2010 1:39 am

One doesn't need to refute the other. You can be disenchanted & revulsed with existence in a wholesome and wise way and yet be happy due to being freed from kilesas.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Dan74
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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Post by Dan74 » Thu May 27, 2010 1:47 am

Alex123 wrote:One doesn't need to refute the other. You can be disenchanted & revulsed with existence in a wholesome and wise way and yet be happy due to being freed from kilesas.
it is samsara and its root cause ignorance that the Buddha taught us to be "disenchanted & revulsed" with, not life. The teachings help let go of craving and attachment, but if craving and attachment are replaced with revulsion and aversion then kilesas cannot be removed - one is still tossed and turned on the self-same sea, except by the waves of revulsion and aversion. Where is equanimity then?
_/|\_

Virgo
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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Post by Virgo » Thu May 27, 2010 2:50 am

Ben wrote:
Mukunda wrote:If you already have the gun, that speaks quite a bit of your mind set.
I don't think so. There are many people who have guns, and in my case - bows, who use them for target shooting.
As there are many collectors of weapons who never take them out of their climate controlled environment to fire them at sentient beings.
Sorry to the OP (original poster) and other posters to stray off-topic slightly, but just a quick aside for you Ben, if that is OK: do you shoot classical bows or new composts?

Kevin

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Alex123
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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Post by Alex123 » Thu May 27, 2010 2:52 am

Nibbida and viraga are wholesome qualities with "seeing things as they are" as the proximate cause.

While it is true that one needs to let go of avijja, what does avijja include? 1st NT is the truth of Dukkha. All 5 aggregates (that make up "life") are dukkha. Ignorance is ignoring and not-accepting that.

"And how is one a person in training, someone following the way? There is the case where, when seeing a form with the eye, there arises in a monk what is agreeable, what is disagreeable, what is agreeable & disagreeable. He feels horrified, humiliated, & disgusted with the arisen agreeable thing... disagreeable thing... agreeable & disagreeable thing. [repeat the same for other 5 senses]
"This is how one is a person in training, someone following the way.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Dan74
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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Post by Dan74 » Thu May 27, 2010 4:24 am

Alex123 wrote:Nibbida and viraga are wholesome qualities with "seeing things as they are" as the proximate cause.

While it is true that one needs to let go of avijja, what does avijja include? 1st NT is the truth of Dukkha. All 5 aggregates (that make up "life") are dukkha. Ignorance is ignoring and not-accepting that.

"And how is one a person in training, someone following the way? There is the case where, when seeing a form with the eye, there arises in a monk what is agreeable, what is disagreeable, what is agreeable & disagreeable. He feels horrified, humiliated, & disgusted with the arisen agreeable thing... disagreeable thing... agreeable & disagreeable thing. [repeat the same for other 5 senses]
"This is how one is a person in training, someone following the way.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Further down this sutta, it is said:
"And how is one a noble one with developed faculties? There is the case where, when seeing a form with the eye, there arises in a monk what is agreeable, what is disagreeable, what is agreeable & disagreeable. If he wants, he remains percipient of loathsomeness in the presence of what is not loathsome. If he wants, he remains percipient of unloathsomeness in the presence of what is loathsome. If he wants, he remains percipient of loathsomeness in the presence of what is not loathsome & what is. If he wants, he remains percipient of unloathsomeness in the presence of what is loathsome & what is not. If he wants — in the presence of what is loathsome & what is not — cutting himself off from both, he remains equanimous, alert, & mindful.
So the loathsomeness is a provisional position to let go of clinging. It does no more characterise life than pleasure, beauty, etc.

Have a look at this thread:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=4429
_/|\_

Mukunda
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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Post by Mukunda » Thu May 27, 2010 4:50 am

Ben wrote:Its your baggage, not mine.
Go into any kitchen and you will find a myriad of implements of death - you'll find them in the knife draw. And I'm sure you can use any number of daily objects as implements of death. How many people get killed each year from being belted by a hammer, or a wrench, or intentionally run over by a car. They are also objects that are used as weapons. Should we stop using them too? Or is it just the big bad target shooters who have questionable ethics, kammic load and poor judgement??
The difference between a paring knife or a chef's knife and a sword or bowie knife is quite obvious. The question isn't whether a paring knife can be used to hurt some one, but rather, is it designed for that purpose. I'd say lumping together kitchen utensils and common tools with items designed to cause harm demonstrates more "baggage" than my pointing out those items designed intent.

Virgo
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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Post by Virgo » Thu May 27, 2010 5:04 am

Mukunda wrote:
Ben wrote:
Mukunda wrote:If you already have the gun, that speaks quite a bit of your mind set.
I don't think so. There are many people who have guns, and in my case - bows, who use them for target shooting.
As there are many collectors of weapons who never take them out of their climate controlled environment to fire them at sentient beings.
The primary of purpose of weapons is to harm or kill other beings. Even though there may be secondary purposes (i.e. target practice, collecting), I fail to see the logic of one committed to not harming other beings being attracted to implements of death for any purpose. Target practice can be practiced using darts, bean bags, etc, and collecting is wide open to almost anything.
It's simply about accumulations in the citta. One person may be attracted to darts, another to another kind of weapon. Trust me, I am not going to kill anyone. Nevertheless, I could hand someone their death very easily, with or without a "weapon". I may have weapons but that doesn't mean I will kill anyone with them silly. Playing with them is just a past-time.

I would say that just because someone has a weapon for any reason does not mean someone will kill someone else with it.
Kevin

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