Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
User avatar
smokey
Posts: 115
Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:01 pm
Location: Budaševo, Croatia

Is Daniel Ingram an Arahant?

Post by smokey »

What do you think? He does not sound like an Arahant to me judging by what I read on his website and in his book. He works as a doctor for money... would an Arahant do that? In his book he lies out of a jest and sweares. He also says this on his website:
"Oh, yes, a brief warning. I should mention that I am hardcore, into hardcore practice, into very hard-hitting dharma, and sometimes I let it out with both barrels. This seems to happen more when I talk on the phone with people, which I do on occasion, but it also happens in emails at times. I expect people to be self-reliant to a high degree, and projections both negative and positive tend to piss me off. I probably should be more understanding, but clearly at times am not. If it happens with you and you are sure nothing good came of it, my apologies, but at least you were warned. Particularly, avoid statements such as, "You claim to be enlightened so you must..." and "I really need you to help me through...", as both are very likely some wild distortion of how things actually are. Avoid projections, stay empowered and focused on the practical and how you yourself can attain these insights, and all should go well."

I am still not excluding a view that he really might be an Arahant although it does not seem to be so, but what do you guys and girls think?
User avatar
altar
Posts: 297
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 6:24 pm
Location: Great Barrington, MA

Re: Is Daniel Ingram an Arahant?

Post by altar »

It seems odd that he espouses a view of openness regarding attainments, "getting it out in the open," so to speak, and at the same time discourages people from questioning these statements.
User avatar
jcsuperstar
Posts: 1915
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:15 am
Location: alaska
Contact:

Re: Is Daniel Ingram an Arahant?

Post by jcsuperstar »

do you want him to be an arahant?




ps there is already a thread on him.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
User avatar
smokey
Posts: 115
Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:01 pm
Location: Budaševo, Croatia

Re: Is Daniel Ingram an Arahant?

Post by smokey »

jcsuperstar wrote:do you want him to be an arahant?




ps there is already a thread on him.
Sorry JC, I was just asking for an opinion.
User avatar
Khalil Bodhi
Posts: 2250
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2009 6:32 pm
Location: NYC
Contact:

Re: Is Daniel Ingram an Arahant?

Post by Khalil Bodhi »

Ajahn Mun speaks about keeping one's mouth shut to avoid doing damage to the sasana in his biography. I don't see the kind of humility that I would want to see in an arahant in Daniel Ingram. If he is an arahant it's in a way that was never taught by the Buddha and cannot be found in the suttas.
To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas.
-Dhp. 183

The Stoic Buddhist: https://www.quora.com/q/dwxmcndlgmobmeu ... pOR2p0uAdH
My Practice Blog:
http://khalilbodhi.wordpress.com
User avatar
bodom
Posts: 7216
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: Is Daniel Ingram an Arahant?

Post by bodom »

Would an Arahant get "pissed off"?

Also see:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3717" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
User avatar
smokey
Posts: 115
Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:01 pm
Location: Budaševo, Croatia

Re: Is Daniel Ingram an Arahant?

Post by smokey »

bodom wrote:Would an Arahant get "pissed off"?

Also see:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3717" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
I agree. An Arahant would not get angry.
User avatar
jcsuperstar
Posts: 1915
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:15 am
Location: alaska
Contact:

Re: Is Daniel Ingram an Arahant?

Post by jcsuperstar »

smokey wrote:
Sorry JC, I was just asking for an opinion.
no need to apologize, but my question remains. many of us want to find someone who has reached the other shore, some sort of proof that it can be done (beyond long passed Indian guys) and will spend a lot of time investigating these types of people, and there are many to get swept up and away by.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
User avatar
Virgo
Posts: 1546
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:52 pm
Location: United States

Re: Is Daniel Ingram an Arahant?

Post by Virgo »

He is not an Arahant. And - and I don't mean to sound fundamental - but stating that you are an Arahant and misleading people will probably land you in hell for a long time if you are aware that you are not really an Arahant but pose as one anyway. The other possibility is that he believes he is an arahant but that he is not. At this time, according to the commentaries, the highest possible attainment while on earth in the human realm is Anagami, not Arahant.

Kevin
Kenshou
Posts: 1030
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:03 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: Is Daniel Ingram an Arahant?

Post by Kenshou »

smokey wrote:I agree. An Arahant would not get angry.
Well the thing is, his idea of an arahant is something rather different than the traditional Buddhist idea. He rejects that model for the most part.

Personally my impression is that Daniel's idea of arahantship is something similar to what stream-entry is in the traditional model.
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Is Daniel Ingram an Arahant?

Post by tiltbillings »

jcsuperstar wrote:do you want him to be an arahant?




ps there is already a thread on him.
Mod note: The new thread has been merged with the older threads.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
nathan
Posts: 692
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 3:11 am

Re: Is Daniel Ingram an Arahant?

Post by nathan »

tiltbillings wrote:Mod note: The new thread has been merged with the older threads.
I suggest renaming it 'the long piss on Daniel thread' because that is the consistent theme of the posts. I'm not suggesting he is an Arahant or not and I honestly don't care. His emphasis was on challenging the view that no one should discuss the realization of arahatta. I think the widespread display of disbelief that anyone is an Arahant that characterizes every thread, anywhere on Arahants that I have ever read is more than enough support for the traditional attitude.

The lesson for everyone here is, whatever you have actually realized, keep it to yourself or prepare to be mocked and disparaged for suggesting in any way that you actually realize, know or understand truths that people would prefer to argue about in purely and entirely abstract and theoretical terms.

(Btw, there is a whole sub-forum on Daniels Dharma Overground Forum where you can challenge his or anyone else claims directly as opposed to merely spreading gossip and innuendos. Enjoy.)
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
User avatar
bodom
Posts: 7216
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: Daniel M. Ingram - Dhamma book written by arahat?

Post by bodom »

Everyone knows your not enlightened unless your names on the cover of a New York Times self help best seller. Oh and your also Oprahs book club pick of the week. :tongue:

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Is Daniel Ingram an Arahant?

Post by tiltbillings »

nathan wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Mod note: The new thread has been merged with the older threads.
I suggest renaming it 'the long piss on Daniel thread' because that is the consistent theme of the posts. I'm not suggesting he is an Arahant or not and I honestly don't care. His emphasis was on challenging the view that no one should discuss the realization of arahatta. I think the widespread display of disbelief that anyone is an Arahant that characterizes every thread, anywhere on Arahants that I have ever read is more than enough support for the traditional attitude.
Sometimes, in your contrarian role you have assigned to yourself, you kind of miss things. Ingram claims to be an arahant, but then dismisses the basic sutta decsriptions of how an arahant is characterized, leaving us with a arahant who gets horny, guzzles beer, gets cranky, lies, kills living beings, etc. Kind of hard to take him seriously: The sutta description is wrong, but mine is correct.

Ingram pisses on himself.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
bodom
Posts: 7216
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: Daniel M. Ingram - Dhamma book written by arahat?

Post by bodom »

The truth of the matter is is that the most realised Buddhist practitioners, whether stream enterer's, once returner's and so on, are not hanging out on Buddhist Forums, on Facebook or writing best sellers. The most enlightened individuals are living in obscurity, in forest wats and monasteries and the truth is we will probably never come into contact with them or there teachings. And please dont get me wrong, this is not to say there are not highly realised and learned individuals posting here at Dhamma Wheel, because there are.

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
Post Reply