Is jhana possible?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
Anicca
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Re: Is jhana possible?

Post by Anicca »

Thanks Kenshou (and Mike)!
Kenshou wrote: At the very least, it's certain that the body is present in awareness and that the mind is functional, though unquestionably calm. I can provide references as necessary.


I get real leery of the descriptions where the meditator is taken to the hospital and pronounced dead only to come out of jhana just as the autopsy begins :shrug: ...

Metta
Kenshou
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Re: Is jhana possible?

Post by Kenshou »

Well hey, those amazing degrees of absorption are possible if someone wants to put in the enormous investment of time to obtain them, but it'd be better to let people around you know that you're going to go off into a meditative state for awhile, so that that doesn't happen. :tongue:
Reductor
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Re: Is jhana possible?

Post by Reductor »

bdah wrote:Especially for lay practitioners who don't have access to a real live teacher and who has to depend on meditation books, online dhamma talks and the suttas for their instruction.

Has anyone answered this?

You can advance into jhana by reading and practicing, but it tends to be a bit bumpy. Still, that's how I've gone about it, as have some/many others on this forum.

If you are going to use materials in place of flesh-and-blood instruction then you have to choose one main writer, preferably one that has produced a good deal of written material on meditation. This is because teachers tend to have their own lexicon of terms and unique perspective on the topic, and mixing the methods of different teachers is likely to lead to your confusion. The more they've written the more you opportunities you have to clarify any uncertainties you might have about their method.

When you do consider the writing of others you should only focus on parts that are clearly in line with your main source, as the topics they introduce that relate directly to that common point can shed additional light on your meditation.

Only when you've used a particular method for an extended period can you have any certainty that you've come to understand it.

I'm a huge fan of Ajaan Lee and his breath meditationbook. Try method 2.
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FrankT
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Re: Is jhana possible?

Post by FrankT »

Friend Anicca,

It really wasn't necessary for the Blessed One, to enter Jhana to find a personal escape for the pain in his back.
Anicca wrote:Yet the sutta style - when the Buddha was describing the exceptionally pervasive pains of old age to Ananda - he said his only escape was through jhana - which must then provide 'enough' absorption - or was the Buddha referencing those states beyond the jhanas - but either way those are accessible through the sutta style jhana?
Remember the Blessed One, was perfectly enlightened -- all the taints and fetters were put out, such that there was no personality (I, Me, or Mine) to experience pain. All that experienced pain was the 5 aggregates. The Blessed One rested his aching back for practical reasons; for instance, without resting his back his body may have had problems walking, or shut down altogether.

However, it can be said that due to the equanimity inherent in meditation, it also brought relief to the 5 aggregates when he did enter Jhana.

In fact, the Blessed One practiced the Brahma Viharas, especially compassion, the domain of the meditation of the Base of Infinite Space -- in order to bring relief from suffering to all living beings.

With Metta.
FrankT :yingyang:
The 2nd Recollection: The Dhamma is well expounded by the Blessed One, directly visible, immediate, inviting one to come and see, worthy of application, to be personally experienced by the wise. (AN 6:10; III 284-88)
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Re: Is jhana possible?

Post by Brizzy »

bdah wrote:Hello friends,

Perhaps this question has been asked before. If so, please direct me to that thread. But I was wondering if jhana is possible for lay practitioners. ... Especially for lay practitioners who don't have access to a real live teacher and who has to depend on meditation books, online dhamma talks and the suttas for their instruction.

I have been meditating for 5 years in the above manner and I have yet to attain any sort of deep concentration that would even come close to being jhana. Of course, being a "householder" I only have time to sit for about 45 minutes (max) a day.

Not having attained jhana has not dampened my enthusiasm for meditation, though. I was just wondering if these mental states are mainly for monks and nuns.
Hi

Not for just monks and nuns - laypeople can achieve them without a long intensive retreat ( although this would be best).

30 to 45 minutes twice a day (at least) with good (not perfect) sila and a quiet lifestyle (even working at a job) COULD see results.

A good teacher would be best, though in this day of internet and cd's etc. you could just about get by without one - although every time you hit a problem you could get a bit lost.

Jhana can arise without meditative effort - the numerous suttas which detail a disciples(lay) breakthrough, often mention the joy/rapture that arises prior to this breakthrough.

If jhana lite means the jhana where you are still aware of the body then this is the one to aim for. If you lose contact with the body you lose reference to the foundation of mindfulness.

:smile:

:smile:
Anicca
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Re: Is jhana possible?

Post by Anicca »

FrankT wrote:Friend Anicca,
It really wasn't necessary for the Blessed One, to enter Jhana to find a personal escape for the pain in his back.
Howdy FrankT!

Thank you for the correction. It does make a difference, a big difference. I now understand that it was to ease his body - not "his" aches! Re-reading the sutta with that in mind gives a completely different understanding. I can't thank you enough - but i'll try -

Thank you Thank you Thank you!

:anjali:

Metta
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mydoghasfleas
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Re: Is jhana possible?

Post by mydoghasfleas »

Now I understand more directly why the Buddha said it's important to have noble friends. All your contributions to this dialogue have been most helpful. When you speak from your personal experience of the dhamma it often makes the things I've read "click" and have more meaning.

I am grateful to those who provide links for further study. The link about the different types of jhana from the leighb site was especially interesting. And thereductor provided a valuable piece of advice to stick with one main author. In my enthusiasm for the dhamma, I find myself wanting to read as much as I can get my hands on ... and it certainly has lead to confusion at times. (I have had the sense, at least, to stick to Theravadin authors, because I am aware that I would be totally confused if I tried to introduce methods from other traditions to my practice.)

It also occurred to me this morning that if it were relatively easy for a lay practitioner to attain higher states of meditation, there would be no reason for anyone to chose to be ordained, I suppose. That reinforces to me the importance of overcoming the hindrances (for the purpose of attaining jhana), and how difficult that is to do as a lay person.

Thanks to all....
Last edited by mydoghasfleas on Sun May 23, 2010 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Alex123
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Re: Is jhana possible?

Post by Alex123 »

Anicca wrote:So Visuddhimagga style allows 1 out of a million entry? Is Jhana possible? - NOT LIKELY Visuddhimagga style!

Yet the sutta style - when the Buddha was describing the exceptionally pervasive pains of old age to Ananda - he said his only escape was through jhana - which must then provide 'enough' absorption - or was the Buddha referencing those states beyond the jhanas - but either way those are accessible through the sutta style jhana?

Metta
Anicca, Buddha HAS NOT SAID THAT.

Buddha couldn't suppress his pain though Jhana. He had to go to the signless concentration.
"Now I am frail, Ananda, old, aged, far gone in years. This is my eightieth year, and my life is spent. Even as an old cart, Ananda, is held together with much difficulty, so the body of the Tathagata is kept going only with supports. It is, Ananda, only when the Tathagata, disregarding external objects, with the cessation of certain feelings, attains to and abides in the signless concentration of mind, [19] that his body is more comfortable.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .html#t-19" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Animitta cetosamadhi. Comy. explains this term here as referring to the fruition-attainment of arahatship (phalasamapatti), in which the Buddha becomes absorbed in the direct experience of Nibbana and no longer attends to external objects or feels mundane feelings.
In Moggalana samyutta it appears to suggest that signless concentration happens after sphere of neither perception nor non perception (SN 40.9).
Kenshou
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Re: Is jhana possible?

Post by Kenshou »

In Moggalana samyutta it appears to suggest that signless concentration happens after sphere of neither perception nor non perception (SN 40.9).
I wonder if that's the case. For example, in the cula-suññata sutta, under the heading Theme-Less Concentration:

"He discerns that 'Whatever disturbances that would exist based on the perception of the dimension of nothingness are not present. Whatever disturbances that would exist based on the perception of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, are not present. And there is only this modicum of disturbance: that connected with the six sensory spheres, dependent on this very body with life as its condition.' He discerns that 'This mode of perception is empty of the perception of the dimension of nothingness. This mode of perception is empty of the perception of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. There is only this non-emptiness: that connected with the six sensory spheres, dependent on this very body with life as its condition.' Thus he regards it as empty of whatever is not there. Whatever remains, he discerns as present: 'There is this.' And so this, his entry into emptiness, accords with actuality, is undistorted in meaning, & pure.

Now first off, this does depend on weather or not themeless concentration and signless concentration are referring to the same animitto cetosamadhi. As far as I know, they are, but I'm open to correction.

This sutta passage seems to suggest to me that it isn't that the themeless concentration occurs strictly after neither perception nor non perception, but that simply that it, along with anything else, isn't payed any attention to (or that concentration would no longer be themeless). The fact that the presence of the body and senses is noted in this case further makes me think that this isn't something restricted to post-8th jhana. If it were, it would mean that the fruition of arahantship were restricted to those with access to arupa jhanas, and I think we know that isn't the case.

I would posit that the signless concentration, or as that sutta also puts it, "entry into emptiness" is a natural result of the attitude of dispassion and it's culmination in non-fashioning, regardless of the state of concentration the individual is at the time of it's attainment, such as in AN 9.36 where jhanas 1-7 are all shown as a possible basis for awakening.
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Alex123
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Re: Is jhana possible?

Post by Alex123 »

I wonder if that's the case. For example, in the cula-suññata sutta, under the heading Theme-Less Concentration:

"He discerns that 'Whatever disturbances that would exist based on the perception of the dimension of nothingness are not present. Whatever disturbances that would exist based on the perception of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, are not present. And there is only this modicum of disturbance: that connected with the six sensory spheres, dependent on this very body with life as its condition.' He discerns that 'This mode of perception is empty of the perception of the dimension of nothingness. This mode of perception is empty of the perception of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. There is only this non-emptiness: that connected with the six sensory spheres, dependent on this very body with life as its condition.' Thus he regards it as empty of whatever is not there. Whatever remains, he discerns as present: 'There is this.' And so this, his entry into emptiness, accords with actuality, is undistorted in meaning, & pure.[/size]
Cessation of perception & feeling is described somewhat similarly
But in the case of a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, his bodily fabrications have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications ... his mental fabrications have ceased & subsided, his vitality is not exhausted, his heat has not subsided, & his faculties are exceptionally clear. This is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, three contacts make contact: contact with emptiness, contact with the signless, & contact with the undirected."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
So animitta may come AFTER (or as a result of) Cessation of Perception & Feeling.


In Moggallana samyutta it lists attainment going from 1st Jhana to 8th and then to Animitta (sutta #9). Sounds like it is also meant to follow the order.
Kenshou
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Re: Is jhana possible?

Post by Kenshou »

Cessation of perception & feeling is described somewhat similarly
It is. I believe that difference between themeless concentration and cessation is the same distinction between the condition of the living arahant and the dead arahant, to use conventional terms. In the former, nibbana is attained but the aggregates persist. In the latter, everything has stopped, though temporarily in the case of nirodha samapatti.
So animitta may come AFTER (or as a result of) Cessation of Perception & Feeling.
As a result of, I can agree with. I would only add that it's not the only way to get there. The fact that after emerging from cessation that the mind tends to incline towards emptiness/signlessness/nibbana (which I believe, in the case of the living arahant, are different words for the same thing) is what makes it a potentially powerful tool for awakening.

EDIT: To make that more clear, I think that "inclining the mind towards the property of the deathlessness/entering emptiness/dwelling in the themeless concentration" are talking about the very same thing, just from slightly different slants. That thing being, the mind's reaching/remaining in nibbana.
In Moggallana samyutta it lists attainment going from 1st Jhana to 8th and then to Animitta (sutta #9). Sounds like it is also meant to follow the order.
I think it's simply something in a different category than rupa or arupa jhana, but it is something that jhana can be used to reach, which is why they're often mentioned in close proximity.
nathan
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Re: Is jhana possible?

Post by nathan »

Here is my reflection on dwelling in emptiness and what it is like, in keeping with MN 121 &122.

Concentration is always, to one extent or another, a simplification of conscious attention that is developed and perfected by cultivating a conscious abandoning of attention to the complexity and diversity of perception in favor of simple and steady, singular and unified kinds of conscious attention. In the form Jhanas as typically described in the Sutta discourses the body as a whole is taken as the object of conscious perception. When the diversity of the thoughts and feelings ordinarily composed by reflexive combination of diverse forms of conscious attention and diverse sensations settles down to one form of simple consciousness that pervades the whole body then the diversity of sensations also settles down to a simple form of perception of the presence of consciousness throughout the whole body.

As the simple and steady concentrated attention to a body filled with consciousness is further developed it becomes easier to maintain this simple kind of attention without effort. When it is effortless to maintain the simple awareness that there is a body and that it is filled with consciousness then conscious attention has become well concentrated in and on the form of the whole body. Concentrated well, consciousness will then easily note that there is no diversity of sensations or of the diverse feelings and thoughts that changing forms of attention and the resulting diverse sensations produce.

When consciousness is noting the simple pleasant sensation that consciousness fills the body then it can further note that there is a corresponding simple pleasantness that fills consciousness. When this simple pleasantness that fills consciousness is noted to be more subtle and pleasant than the pleasant perception of the body as simply a body filled with consciousness then concentration will shift predominantly to the simple pleasure that consciousness has achieved by freeing itself from attending to the diversity of conscious perceptions. Consciousness can then note how very peaceful this simplicity of attention is.

This process of simplification of attention is how concentration in it's purest forms always proceeds. If attention to the body as a single form that is present and sensed by being filled with consciousness is intruded upon by various other changing forms of attention and diverse sensations, concentration can then again be interrupted by various feelings and thoughts as well. The concentration that develops by practicing consciousness of the whole body in one simple way begins by progressively steadying and simplifying the untrained or unskilled habits of a consciousness that moves attention from place to place in the body and from one quality to another of sensation or from one kind to another of compounded thoughts and feelings.

When concentrated conscious attention is cultivated by attention to the whole body filled simply with a conscious presence this will progressively tone down the diversity of perceptions. By practicing the sense of a the whole body as a form pervaded by conscious awareness, consciousness develops an appreciation for the relative pleasantness of simplicity and the degrees of concentration that results from developing this simple kind of attention.

When concentration of the simple presence of consciousness in the whole body has become entirely peaceful and it gives up the attention to the resulting pleasantness in the body and in consciousness then this is what fourth Jhana is like. It is a very simple and steady state of consciousness with a very simple awareness of it's presence in a body.

When the concentrated awareness of the presence of a body slips away and consciousness has attention to only the simple awareness that consciousness is present then consciousness is giving its full concentrated attention to the formless Jhanas or to only the qualities of concentrated consciousness apart from all attention to form.

The four formless jhanas are increasingly subtle concentrations of consciousness wherein concentration has reduced the diverse qualities typical of the varieties of ordinarily changing conscious attention to forms and sensations to only the four, three, two, or one simple qualities of the condition of consciousness.

Diverse thoughts, sensations, feelings, and the sense of changing forms that are typical of consciousness that is not concentrated are abandoned in the course of developing form based concentration. When concentration is developed enough to let go of it's simple and singular concentrated attention to form only concentrated consciousness remains. A concentrated consciousness no longer attending to form can examine its inherent qualities and as it lets go of each of these it becomes a still more concentrated and subtle consciousness condition.

If every quality of consciousness is entirely let go of consciousness will stop arising and there will be a complete cessation of consciousness.

After consciousness has observed the four formless jhana qualities and/or cessation it can then continue applying attention to maintaining the purity of the simplified qualities of concentrated consciousness as attention proceeds back towards complexity from the most refined types of formless concentration of conscious attention to simple concentrated conscious awareness of the body form to the diversity of conscious awareness of the body and sensations.

When consciousness is formlessly concentrated it is has a sense of the boundless infinitude of space, of the boundless infinitude of consciousness, of the no thing-ness of consciousness and of the nature of consciousness to be inclined to be present and thereby to have the volition to know.

When the pure and simple qualities characteristic of formless concentrated consciousness are present and steady together with the ordinary diversity of perceptions of forms and sensations then this kind of mindfulness is called dwelling in emptiness by the Buddha and Ananda in the Cula-suññata Sutta. One can develop the four qualities of concentrated consciousness either in the presence of form and formless concentration or not.

However, to discern the qualities of concentrated consciousness specifically for what each is like, in isolation from other kinds of attention, the most direct way is to do so by means of cultivating and experiencing the formless concentrations of consciousness the and/or the cessation of consciousness.

When the qualities of consciousness in the formless concentrations and the absence of all conditions and qualities thereof in cessation have been developed, known and understood, it is then much easier to give conscious attention to maintaining and or discerning the presence of these concentrated qualities of consciousness even together with the perception of diverse and changing forms and sensations.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
Anicca
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Re: Is jhana possible?

Post by Anicca »

Alex123 wrote:Anicca, Buddha HAS NOT SAID THAT.
Howdy Alex!

Thanks for the correction.

:anjali:

Metta
Kenshou
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Re: Is jhana possible?

Post by Kenshou »

Hey Nathan, thanks for taking the time to write all that. Think I understand what you're saying, up until the end bit.
After consciousness has observed the four formless jhana qualities and/or cessation it can then continue applying attention to maintaining the purity of the simplified qualities of concentrated consciousness as attention proceeds back towards complexity from the most refined types of formless concentration of conscious attention to simple concentrated conscious awareness of the body form to the diversity of conscious awareness of the body and sensations.

When the pure and simple qualities characteristic of formless concentrated consciousness are present and steady together with the ordinary diversity of perceptions of forms and sensations then this kind of mindfulness is called dwelling in emptiness by the Buddha and Ananda in the Cula-suññata Sutta. One can develop the four qualities of concentrated consciousness either in the presence of form and formless concentration or not.
I'm afraid that I might not be digesting this well enough, but it seems to me that what you're essentially saying is that it's possible, once one is familiar with them, to turn attention to the qualities of the formless jhanas, though without going so far as to abandon perceptions of form as usual. Is that really all there is to it? Though I have no experience with formless jhanas I think I can understand how this is theoretically possible. Am I missing anything?
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retrofuturist
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Re: Is jhana possible?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Nathan,

Thank you very much for your lucid explanation.

:anjali:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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