SN 35.236 The Simile Of Hands And Feet

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

Here's an interesting sutta... anyone wish to give their thoughts on the intended meaning?

SN 35.236 - The Simile Of Hands And Feet (Bodhi translation)

Bhikkhus, when there are hands, picking up and putting down are discerned. When there are feet, coming and going are discerned. When there are limbs, bending and stretching are discerned. When there is the belly, hunger and thirst are discerned.

So too, bhikkhus, where there is the eye, pleasure and pain arise internally with eye-contact as condition. When there is the ear, pleasure and pain arise internally with ear-contact as condition.... When there is the mind, pleasure and pain arise internally with mind-contact as condition.

Bhikkhus, when there are no hands, picking up and putting down are not discerned. When there are no feet, coming and going are not discerned. When there are no limbs, bending and stretching are not discerned. When there is no belly, hunger and thirst are not discerned.

So too, bhikkhus, where there is no eye, no pleasure and pain arise internally with eye-contact as condition. When there is no ear, no pleasure and pain arise internally with ear-contact as condition.... When there is no mind, no pleasure and pain arise internally with mind-contact as condition.

Metta,
Retro.

[Ben]

Hi Retro
I'm sorry I don't have my copy of the SN by my side at the moment. In the absence of any explanatory notes by Bhikkhu Bodhi, the first thing that comes to mind is the similarity of this sutta to vedananupassana and cittanupassana.
kind regards

Ben

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Ben,

There is a brief explanatory note (from Spk) but I've intentionally omitted it, lest it prematurely sway perceptions.

Metta,
Retro.

[Prasadachitta]

Hi Retro,

I know you want my thoughts but its difficult to say which ones are relatively mine and which ones are more a matter of recalling what I have read so here I will directly quote What I have been reading.

MN 1

Mulapariyaya Sutta...(as quoted in "The Magic of Mind" by Nanananda Bhikkhu)

"And the Thathagata, too, monks, who is an Arahant, Fully Enlightened, understands earth as earth through higher knowledge; knowing earth as earth through higher knowledge, he does not conceive earth to be earth; he does not conceive: "from earth"; he does not conceive: "on the earth"; he does not conceive: "earth is mine" ; he does not delight in earth. What is the reason for this? I say, it is because it has been well comprehended by him."

I think you can substitute eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and whatever. The Sutta even has nirvana as one of the many things that go where the word earth is above.

Nananada goes on a few more paragraphs ahead to comment...

"When consciousness is not arrested by any object at the point of focus, it peneatrates through the net of name-and-form out into an infinitude, and "viewpoints" give place to an all encompassing vision, In this respect, it is described as "lustrous-all-round", and the lustre is wisdom itself. The illumination brings about a "fading away" of all objects which earlier appeared to be "significant" due to the bewitching gleam of sense-consciousness. Consequently, this experience is sometimes referred to as "the cessation of the six sense-spheres"."

Makes sense to me.


Metta

Gabe

[bodom]

This is where the commentaries really serve there purpose in my opinion. I would have no clue as to what this sutta is referring to. Many sutta's are cryptic and packed with meaning and this is where Ven. Mahakaccana, the foremost disciple in the detailed exposition of brief sayings helped the bhikkhu's decipher what the Buddha was saying even while the Blessed one was still alive. How much more 2500 years after his death do we need explanation now? It is said that Mahakaccana's "approach to interpretation was to become characteristic of the later commentaries." BB, SN pg 1046, note 17.

If I had to take a stab in the dark, without referring to Bodhi's notes, as to the meaning, existence and the cessation of existence due to Paticcasamuppada.

[Virgo]

The meaning is that things arise because of conditions.

Kevin

[gavesako]

Compare http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; which uses a similar imagery when talking about the "establishing" of consciousness when there is a "support" (arammana) for it due to clinging. This is similar to the "field" (khetta) which is made up of kamma, but it can be abandoned here & now if there is no delight and craving.

See "khettam tam na hoti, vatthum tam na hoti, āyatanam tam na hoti, adhikaranam tam na hoti, yam paccayāssa tam uppajjati ajjhattam sukhadukkham." A II 158, Cetanāsutta:

"When there is a body, pleasure & pain arise internally with bodily intention as the cause; or when there is speech, pleasure & pain arise internally with verbal intention as the cause; or when there is intellect, pleasure & pain arise internally with intellectual intention as the cause.

"From ignorance as a requisite condition, then either of one's own accord one fabricates bodily fabrication on account of which that pleasure & pain arise internally, or because of others one fabricates bodily fabrication on account of which that pleasure & pain arise internally. Either alert one fabricates bodily fabrication on account of which that pleasure & pain arise internally, or unalert one fabricates bodily fabrication on account of which that pleasure & pain arise internally. (Similarly with verbal & intellectual fabrications.)

"Now, ignorance is bound up in these things. From the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance, there no longer exists [the sense of] the body on account of which that pleasure & pain internally arise. There no longer exists the speech... the intellect on account of which that pleasure & pain internally arise. There no longer exists the field, the site, the dimension, or the issue on account of which that pleasure & pain internally arise."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[chownah]

I think this sutta meshes very nicely with a bunch of others such as the one that talks about the All and the one that talks about the Thatagata not construeing things.

Instead of experiencing sensations as being "just so" or "just such" we worldlings construe a host of things in order to support our mistaken sense of self....we construe hands and so we attribute certain sensations to be a sign of our "self" being active in picking up and putting down....we construe limbs and so we attribute certain sensations as the self bending.....we construe a belly and so we attribute certain sensations as being our hunger and thirst.

This first part concerning body parts is a mundane introduction to the meaning of this sutta which then proceeds to use the same arguement only this time concerning the six sense doors. The first sense doors are the body sense doors (eye, ear, nose, tongue, body) and notably the mind is discussed last. The extension of the opening arguemt to include the body sense doors is to extend the arguement from the mundate world view to the more pertinent essential ingredients which constitute the All....even the construeing of the five body sense doors is to be seen and understood for what they are.....and....finally the last sense door i.e. the mind is dealt with using the same arguement and thus the discussion is lead to its conslusion which is that when this arguement is applied to the end it can eliminate pleasure and pain which sounds alot like the end of dukkha to me....I guess.

chownah

[Zom]

I think the meaning of this sutta is quite plain - where there is no body and no mind - there is no contacts that produce feelings. No feelings - no dukkha.

There he said to the monks, "This Unbinding (nibbana) is pleasant, friends. This Unbinding is pleasant."
When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, "But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?"

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Dan74]

Good question, good answers!!!

[tiltbillings]

Hi Retro
I'm sorry I don't have my copy of the SN by my side at the moment. In the absence of any explanatory notes by Bhikkhu Bodhi, the first thing that comes to mind is the similarity of this sutta to vedananupassana and cittanupassana.
kind regards

Ben

The first thing that came to mind for me was the Heart Sutra. Oh, damn, I must be a closet Mahayanist. There has to be a cure for that.

[Dan74]

Hi Retro
I'm sorry I don't have my copy of the SN by my side at the moment. In the absence of any explanatory notes by Bhikkhu Bodhi, the first thing that comes to mind is the similarity of this sutta to vedananupassana and cittanupassana.
kind regards

Ben

The first thing that came to mind for me was the Heart Sutra.

You said it, not me.

Oh, damn, I must be a closet Mahayanist. There has to be a cure for that.

I am sure PeterB will be happy to lend his professional services!

"It all started many years ago when a friend bought me a book by the Dalai Lama. I hid it in the bottom of my wardrobe and took it out at night when the parents were asleep. I had all but forgotten about it and those days when recently I accidentally downloaded a talk by Thich Nhat Hanh. I meant to listen to one of Bhikkhu Bodhi's sutta talks but accidentally clicked on the wrong link. No honestly..."

By which stage Peter is writing a long prescription...

.....

phpBB .

[tiltbillings]

You said it, not me.

Occasionally the Mahayanists do get it right, which is a good thing.

[Dan74]

http://www.stagingsvr.com/starwars/soun ... ide2_y.wav

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

My understanding of this sutta is along the lines of what Gabriel, Venerable Gavesako and Chownah have spoken.

I also agree with what Virgo has said, but it's so generic that we could both agree on that comment, yet understand the sutta in entirely different ways.

"Spk" (which I assume is the SN commentary) that Bhikkhu Bodhi refers to in his notes, seems to be of the perspective that it's comparing pre-parinibbana existence to post-parinibbana. In other words, the arahant dies, therefore will not be reborn with eyes, ears and so on. To me that's too crude, and misses the point... but then again, I generally think the commentarial tradition interprets things in an objectified ontological manner which would be better understood phenomenologically / experientially... so that is little surprise really.

Metta,
Retro.