The bhavanga are those exact "easy to understand" processes. They function at three periods of your life - at rebirth - at death - and at moments of unconsciousness.Alex123 wrote:It is easy to understand that some past life object can somehow be passed subconsciously to manifest itself when the conditions are right.
One "citta" at a time
Re: One "citta" at a time
Re: One "citta" at a time
A typical eye-door cognitive process:
17 steps
1 past bhavanga
2 vibrating bhavanga (the present life object - a photon - "knocks" on the eye door)
3 arresting bhavanga (the bhavanga stream (unconsciousness) is cut off to give way to the new sense object)
4 5-door adverting consciousness
5 eye consciousness
6 receiving consciousness
7 investigating consciousness
8 javana
9 javana
10 javana
11 javana
12 javana
13 javana
14 javana
15 registering consciousness
16 registering consciousness
17 bhavanga
The wholesome and unwholesome kamma are performed at the javana stage.
The visible object & eye sensitivity perish with the registering consciousness. (Leaving only the memory...)
Simple eh?
Notice steps 1,2, 3 and 17 do not use present life objects - they are not "under our scrutiny" - unless you are well gone!
17 steps
1 past bhavanga
2 vibrating bhavanga (the present life object - a photon - "knocks" on the eye door)
3 arresting bhavanga (the bhavanga stream (unconsciousness) is cut off to give way to the new sense object)
4 5-door adverting consciousness
5 eye consciousness
6 receiving consciousness
7 investigating consciousness
8 javana
9 javana
10 javana
11 javana
12 javana
13 javana
14 javana
15 registering consciousness
16 registering consciousness
17 bhavanga
The wholesome and unwholesome kamma are performed at the javana stage.
The visible object & eye sensitivity perish with the registering consciousness. (Leaving only the memory...)
Simple eh?
Notice steps 1,2, 3 and 17 do not use present life objects - they are not "under our scrutiny" - unless you are well gone!
Re: One "citta" at a time
Thank you for a summary of 17 moments of cognitive process. Yes, I am aware of it. But my question is deeper:
How does information (conditions, accumulations, kamma, etc) go from lets say step 1 to step 2?
Please refer to my picture in which it would make sense if two cittas (such as bhavanga) could overlap. But if one citta (lets say past bhavanga) has to cease before another citta (lets say vibrating bhavanga) arises, with NO OVERLAP, then how do the conditions skip the abyss? How can effect arise without existing cause?
How does information (conditions, accumulations, kamma, etc) go from lets say step 1 to step 2?
Please refer to my picture in which it would make sense if two cittas (such as bhavanga) could overlap. But if one citta (lets say past bhavanga) has to cease before another citta (lets say vibrating bhavanga) arises, with NO OVERLAP, then how do the conditions skip the abyss? How can effect arise without existing cause?
Re: One "citta" at a time
<Sorry - had to eat dinner>Alex123 wrote:How can effect arise without existing cause?
The cause exists before the result - they do not actually touch - the forces act 'at a distance'. How do they bridge this gap? Darn good question.
We are taught not-self -yet we inherit kamma. Something not-self connects us with our past life. How?
Similarly, past objects of citta or consciousness connects - bridges the gap - between the past moment of consciousness and the current. How? Forward pass - not lateral - not a hand-off either... but the process is described to preserve the continuity of existence using "not-currently-existing" objects.
Wish i could be of more help - i'll keep searching...
Good time for Ben to return ... Ben?
Re: One "citta" at a time
The whole "one at a time" concept requires a paradigm shift to the dance of Shiva - each moment of existence is literally a death and rebirth of existence. There is no continuing soul or atman or anything to bridge the gap - from lifetime to the next lifetime or moment to moment! What can we point to that persists from one life to the next? Well, that same 'nothing' persists from one moment to the next in this life too. Someone correct me, please....
Re: One "citta" at a time
Kamma persists (until it ripens or goes defunct). Accumulations persist. Anusayas persist (until they are forever cut out).Anicca wrote: Well, that same 'nothing' persists from one moment to the next in this life too. Someone correct me, please....
So how do they get passed on and handed from one citta to another?
Re: One "citta" at a time
Pakatúpanissaya-paccaya.Alex123 wrote:Kamma persists (until it ripens or goes defunct). Accumulations persist. Anusayas persist (until they are forever cut out).Anicca wrote: Well, that same 'nothing' persists from one moment to the next in this life too. Someone correct me, please....
So how do they get passed on and handed from one citta to another?
Re: One "citta" at a time
Hi AniccaAnicca wrote:Good time for Ben to return ... Ben?
I'm actually at work at the moment and so I can't devote much time to the forum besides slipping in, reading and making the odd comment, and exiting again. And I should let you, and everyone else know, I am certainly no Abhidhamma expert. I'm still in Abhidhamma kindergarten!! What I was/am doing is providing material from someone who I consider a valuable authority on the Abhidhamma commentaries and Pali, Bhikkhu Bodhi.
If I get time tonight, I'll forge ahead with finding answers to some of your questions.
metta
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
Re: One "citta" at a time
Virgo wrote:Pakatúpanissaya-paccaya.Alex123 wrote:Kamma persists (until it ripens or goes defunct). Accumulations persist. Anusayas persist (until they are forever cut out).Anicca wrote: Well, that same 'nothing' persists from one moment to the next in this life too. Someone correct me, please....
So how do they get passed on and handed from one citta to another?
How exactly does it operate?
Re: One "citta" at a time
It's kind of complicated, but basically each citta influences the next citta that arises and imprints are passed on from one to the next since beginningless time. So there are accumulations in each citta. That is why people are the way they are. Tendencies are accumulated, etc.Alex123 wrote:Virgo wrote: Pakatúpanissaya-paccaya.
How exactly does it operate?
Kevin
Re: One "citta" at a time
Hello all,
It may be that this resource Abhidhamma in Daily Life ~ Nina van Gorkom, will be of use in this thread:
[Chapter1] The Four Paramattha Dhammas
[Chapter 2] The Five Khandhas
[Chapter 3] Different Aspects Of Citta
[Chapter 4] The Characteristic Of Lobha
[Chapter 5] Different Degrees Of Lobha
[Chapter 6] The Characteristic Of Dosa
[Chapter 7] Ignorance
[Chapter 8] Ahetuka Cittas
[Chapter 9] The Ahetuka Cittas Which Are Unknown In Daily Life
[Chapter 10] The First Citta In Life
[Chapter 11] Different Types Of Patisandhi- Citta
[Chapter 12] The Function Of Bhavanga
[Chapter 13] Functions Of Citta In The Sense-Door Process And In The Mind-Door Process
[Chapter 14] The Function Of Javana
{Chapter[15] The Functions Of Tadarammana And Cuti
[16] Objects And Doors
[17] Doors And Physical Bases Of Citta
[18] Elements
[19] The Sobhana Cittas In Our Life
[20] Planes Of Existence
[21] Samatha
[22] Jhanacittas
[23] Lokuttara Cittas
[24] Enlightenment
http://www.vipassana.info/nina-abhi-00.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
with metta
Chris
It may be that this resource Abhidhamma in Daily Life ~ Nina van Gorkom, will be of use in this thread:
[Chapter1] The Four Paramattha Dhammas
[Chapter 2] The Five Khandhas
[Chapter 3] Different Aspects Of Citta
[Chapter 4] The Characteristic Of Lobha
[Chapter 5] Different Degrees Of Lobha
[Chapter 6] The Characteristic Of Dosa
[Chapter 7] Ignorance
[Chapter 8] Ahetuka Cittas
[Chapter 9] The Ahetuka Cittas Which Are Unknown In Daily Life
[Chapter 10] The First Citta In Life
[Chapter 11] Different Types Of Patisandhi- Citta
[Chapter 12] The Function Of Bhavanga
[Chapter 13] Functions Of Citta In The Sense-Door Process And In The Mind-Door Process
[Chapter 14] The Function Of Javana
{Chapter[15] The Functions Of Tadarammana And Cuti
[16] Objects And Doors
[17] Doors And Physical Bases Of Citta
[18] Elements
[19] The Sobhana Cittas In Our Life
[20] Planes Of Existence
[21] Samatha
[22] Jhanacittas
[23] Lokuttara Cittas
[24] Enlightenment
http://www.vipassana.info/nina-abhi-00.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
Re: One "citta" at a time
Thank you Kevin for more detailed reply. However, what is the mechanism of that influence that passes on like an imprint from one citta to the next?Virgo wrote:It's kind of complicated, but basically each citta influences the next citta that arises and imprints are passed on from one to the next since beginningless time. So there are accumulations in each citta. That is why people are the way they are. Tendencies are accumulated, etc.Alex123 wrote:Virgo wrote: Pakatúpanissaya-paccaya.
How exactly does it operate?
Kevin
Re: One "citta" at a time
It's simply the way citta operate naturally. It is one of the 24 conditions mentioned in the Abhidhamma, listed in the Great Book (the 7'th).Alex123 wrote: Thank you Kevin for more detailed reply. However, what is the mechanism of that influence that passes on like an imprint from one citta to the next?
Kevin
Re: One "citta" at a time
Undoubtedly! Thanks Chris.cooran wrote:Hello all,
It may be that this resource Abhidhamma in Daily Life ~ Nina van Gorkom, will be of use in this thread:
One of these days, I'll get around to reading Nina's book.
kind regards
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
Re: One "citta" at a time
Thanks Chris!cooran wrote:It may be that this resource Abhidhamma in Daily Life ~ Nina van Gorkom, will be of use in this thread
Surely this explains it better than my feeble attempt, but it really doesn't go into the details 'how' the conditioning passes from one citta to the next. I feel Alex's concern - if one citta quote "falls away completely" unquote before the next arises - what passes on the conditioning? Other sources use the term "tendencies" that are passed from one citta to the next. How does this explain to Alex how past life kamma enters into present life citta? I am satisfied with "action at a distance" but i cannot quote that from any other source than my mind - and what good is that?Each citta which arises falls away completely and is succeeded by the next citta. How then can there be accumulations of experiences in life, accumulations of good and bad inclinations? The reason is that each citta which falls away is succeeded by the next citta. Our life is an uninterrupted series of cittas and each citta conditions the next citta and this again the next, and thus the past can condition the present. It is a fact that our good cittas and bad cittas in the past condition our inclinations today. Thus, good and bad inclinations are accumulated.
Metta