Shaving the head

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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Ben
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Re: Shaving the head

Post by Ben »

Hi Bhante

your comment about shaving/trimming eyebrows reminded me that Quinn decided to shave his eyebrows off about a week ago. We found out after the fact. Previously he told me, one day out of the blue, that he wanted to become a monk. I'm just wondering how much of it is my influence or something deeper.
Who knows!
kind regards

Ben
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5Khandas
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Re: Shaving the head

Post by 5Khandas »

Goofaholix wrote:Unless ill — e.g., he has a sore on his head — a bhikkhu may not use scissors to cut his hair or have it cut.
Yes, I've already quote that, and I'm hoping that birthmarks can take as 'illness' (a sore is just an example, so there have to be other cases), so I'll be able to use scissors and cut my hair to a minimum lenght.
Goofaholix wrote:I would think this almost certainly rules out wat Pah Nanachaat, and possibly Theravada ordination in general.
I hope this is not true - it would be a nonsense. To turn someone down from ordination, and ruin a potantially fruitful holy life, just because of a few millimeter hair! :cookoo:

I just cannot imgaine that the Buddha would have done such a thing. And because the monks at Wat Pah Nanachat are good disciples of the Buddha, I'm still hoping...

(Or the monks became so rigid about the Vinaya, and they cling so much to rites and rituals - no, no, no, I can't believe that.)

Metta :anjali:
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appicchato
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Re: Shaving the head

Post by appicchato »

If I were asked, I would say that it's all a game...a crazy, crazy, game...the holy life takes place between our ears, not wrapped in a sheet (like I am)...I wish you well in your endeavor, but I would also like to say that the holy life can be led in, or out of, the robes...
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Goofaholix
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Re: Shaving the head

Post by Goofaholix »

5Khandas wrote:I hope this is not true - it would be a nonsense. To turn someone down from ordination, and ruin a potantially fruitful holy life, just because of a few millimeter hair!

I just cannot imgaine that the Buddha would have done such a thing. And because the monks at Wat Pah Nanachat are good disciples of the Buddha, I'm still hoping...

(Or the monks became so rigid about the Vinaya, and they cling so much to rites and rituals - no, no, no, I can't believe that.)

Metta :anjali:
If ordaining at Wat Pah Nanachat were the only way to get enlightened then what you say would be true, there are other options you could consider there are other ways to lead the holy life.

I might be wrong about this it might not be a big deal so it's worth asking them, but remember this is a place that asks male visitors to shave their head after 3 days and they get a lot of people who rock up there wanting to ordain but find they can't fit in for one reason or another.

Just consider if you do find a place to ordain then want to travel around different wats as monks usually do you'll need to keep explaining your situation again and again with the language barrier also
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
5Khandas
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Re: Shaving the head

Post by 5Khandas »

Goofaholix wrote:Just consider if you do find a place to ordain then want to travel around different wats as monks usually do you'll need to keep explaining your situation again and again with the language barrier also
I think I would get along with it somehow ;)

Yes, it is possible to live some kind of 'holy life' without ordaining, but that is not enough for me. I keep complete celibacy, for example, so I try to do that as much as I can now.
But I can't imgaine to live my whole life as a layman... I just can't do that; I don't have the vaguest aspiration for anything you can get in/from the lay life. It is really very hard to live a lay life, when wherever you see, or whatever you do, just one thought come up your mind again and again: it's useless. It's impermanent, it's no me or mine, so why should I 'have' or 'get' it ? (I know what you'll think/reply: then live your lay life without clinging. But if you see deeply into that, it'll become clear that the whole lay life is about clinging.)

OK, I can't explain it better...

Metta :anjali:
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appicchato
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Re: Shaving the head

Post by appicchato »

I feel compelled to repeat myself here friend...that the holy life is led from between our ears, and not within some clothes/ceremonies...99% of the 'holy life' today isn't anything at all like it was in the Buddha's day, or the way he set things going (at least from what I've learned and experienced)...a sincere monk can (quite readily, I believe) exist with the four requisites, dependent on the laity, and as a recluse, if one so desires (without 'officially' being ordained)...to think that everything depends on someone saying some words, and giving you a robe (which is the way you're coming across to me) is, on the large scheme of things, well, less than skillful...if it's so important, keep at it, and you will succeed...the obstacles you present here are NOT that important...minor in fact...

Wishing you all the best...
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Goofaholix
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Re: Shaving the head

Post by Goofaholix »

5Khandas wrote:Yes, it is possible to live some kind of 'holy life' without ordaining, but that is not enough for me. I keep complete celibacy, for example, so I try to do that as much as I can now.
But I can't imgaine to live my whole life as a layman... I just can't do that; I don't have the vaguest aspiration for anything you can get in/from the lay life. It is really very hard to live a lay life, when wherever you see, or whatever you do, just one thought come up your mind again and again: it's useless. It's impermanent, it's no me or mine, so why should I 'have' or 'get' it ? (I know what you'll think/reply: then live your lay life without clinging. But if you see deeply into that, it'll become clear that the whole lay life is about clinging.)
Then you should go for it, I hope it works out for you. Everyone who undertakes such a radical life change is going to have obstacles to contend with, this is just one of yours.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Goofaholix
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Re: Shaving the head

Post by Goofaholix »

appicchato wrote:and (in Thailand) shaving your eyebrows?...eyebrows?...I 'trim' mine, to keep the peace, but don't shave them...
It wasn't until I lived in a hot climate without my eyebrows that I realised what they were for.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Sekha
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Re: Shaving the head

Post by Sekha »

5Khandas wrote: Yes, it is possible to live some kind of 'holy life' without ordaining, but that is not enough for me. I keep complete celibacy, for example, so I try to do that as much as I can now.
But I can't imgaine to live my whole life as a layman... I just can't do that; I don't have the vaguest aspiration for anything you can get in/from the lay life. It is really very hard to live a lay life, when wherever you see, or whatever you do, just one thought come up your mind again and again: it's useless. It's impermanent, it's no me or mine, so why should I 'have' or 'get' it ? (I know what you'll think/reply: then live your lay life without clinging. But if you see deeply into that, it'll become clear that the whole lay life is about clinging.)
:thumbsup:

I find this very truthful and it is exactly the way I feel, except that I don't want to get ordained. I would like to find a way to live the bhikkhu life without having to get engaged in any religion.
Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

http://www.buddha-vacana.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Bankei
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Re: Shaving the head

Post by Bankei »

appicchato wrote:I feel compelled to repeat myself here friend...that the holy life is led from between our ears, and not within some clothes/ceremonies...99% of the 'holy life' today isn't anything at all like it was in the Buddha's day, or the way he set things going (at least from what I've learned and experienced)...a sincere monk can (quite readily, I believe) exist with the four requisites, dependent on the laity, and as a recluse, if one so desires (without 'officially' being ordained)...to think that everything depends on someone saying some words, and giving you a robe (which is the way you're coming across to me) is, on the large scheme of things, well, less than skillful...if it's so important, keep at it, and you will succeed...the obstacles you present here are NOT that important...minor in fact...

Wishing you all the best...
Very true
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Bankei
Bankei
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Re: Shaving the head

Post by Bankei »

5Khandas wrote:Hello everybody,

I'd like to ordain as a monk at Wat Pah Nanachat some day. But now I became a bit anxious, because...

I went to a dermatologist, and it turned out, that I have several birthmarks on my head (naevus pigmentosus). There is no problem with them, there is no sign that they will turn into melanoma.
But it is definitely not advisable to shave my head, because if they injured it can be dangerous. So I can’t shave my head completely, not even with a hair clipper, because it can injure them too.

What can I do now? Is it an obstacle to my ordination? Or is it possible to cut my hair to a minimum size with a hair clipper or something like that?
I’ve read this in the Buddhist Monastic Code:
(http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... .ch01.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)
Unless ill — e.g., he has a sore on his head — a bhikkhu may not use scissors to cut his hair or have it cut. The question of using electric razors to shave the head is a controversial one. Because their cutting action — even in rotary shavers — is like that of scissors, many Communities will not allow their use in shaving the head.
Is it possible to take it as a ‘sore’, so I can use scissors? What does the Community of Wat Pah Nanachat think about that (I mean do they use electric razors)?

Please help, because I’m getting a bit mad with it... :rolleye:

Metta :anjali:
These days hair removal cream is very popular - not usually used on the head, but I am sure it could be. It could irritate your birthmark however.
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Bankei
5Khandas
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Re: Shaving the head

Post by 5Khandas »

Thanks Bankei! I will google it...
If I use it once will it make me bald forever, or I have to use it regularly? (if so, then it'd be still a problem)

Anyway thanks for the tip, I'll search a bit, and I can also ask my dermatologist about that.

Metta :anjali:
Bankei
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Re: Shaving the head

Post by Bankei »

it is not permanent, the hair will grow back again - but i think it is slower than if you had shaved it. It works by semi-dissolving the hair. You apply the cream, wait 10 min and then scrap it off. Veet is a good brand of hair removal.
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Bankei
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ShinMeiDokuJoh
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Re: Shaving the head

Post by ShinMeiDokuJoh »

Dear 5Khandas,

maybe a hair clipper is also allowed:

http://www.rubylane.com/shops/fenwoodstudio/item/RL1083" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

With best regards
ShinMeiDokuJoh
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5Khandas
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Re: Shaving the head

Post by 5Khandas »

Thanks ShinMeiDokuJoh!
Although, I think if electric razors are not allowed than this kind of hair clipper is also not used (because their cutting action is like that of scissors).

As I'm searching more and more I start to think that perhaps this won't be such a big problem at all, because there are many people who shave their birthmarks (the same kind that I have), and if they’re cautious enough they don’t cut it. Anyway I will ask my dermatologist about that.

So perhaps Bhante Appicchato will be right:
appicchato wrote:the obstacles you present here are NOT that important...minor in fact...
To say the truth I tend to overcomplicate everything (this is the biggest problem in my practice also, I think).

Metta :anjali:
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