Are Western Buddhists Perfectionistic Overachievers?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?

As Compared with the Average Eastern Buddhist, are Western Buddhists Perfectionistic Overachievers?

Absolutely not
2
25%
Some are, but not most
3
38%
Most are
3
38%
Yeah, definitely
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 8

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christopher:::
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Are Western Buddhists Perfectionistic Overachievers?

Post by christopher::: »

I've asked this question before, over at the Grey Forum, though not in poll form. And i don't mean to sound judgmental by asking this. High goals and perfectionistic attitudes can be extremely helpful in dhamma practice.
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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m0rl0ck
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Re: Are Western Buddhists Perfectionistic Overachievers?

Post by m0rl0ck »

I fail to see how one could take it too seriously :)

The thing is i dont think we have the buddhist equivalent of the easter and xmas christian here in the west, the way they might in the east.
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig
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retrofuturist
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Re: Are Western Buddhists Perfectionistic Overachievers?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Chris:::,

Do you think "perfectionistic" infers "overarchiever" and vice versa?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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christopher:::
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Re: Are Western Buddhists Perfectionistic Overachievers?

Post by christopher::: »

m0rl0ck wrote:I fail to see how one could take it too seriously :)
Really? Buddhism is much more then holidays. Many Westerners seem to take their dhamma practice very seriously, like the Whos in Whoville...

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Chris:::,

Do you think "perfectionistic" infers "overarchiever" and vice versa?

:tongue:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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Goofaholix
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Re: Are Western Buddhists Perfectionistic Overachievers?

Post by Goofaholix »

I'm not sure how to answer as there are several ways this question could be interpreted (as is usual with polls), here's a few;

Are western Buddhists perfectionistic overachievers compared with western non-Buddhists?

Are western Buddhists perfectionistic overachievers compared with non-western Buddhists?

Are western Buddhists perfectionistic overachievers when they come to Buddhism, and presumably grow out of it when they realise they can't overachieve their way to nibbana?

Are western Buddhists perfectionistic overachievers in attitude despite underachieving and failing to achieve perfection?

Do western Buddhists achieve, and overachieve, perfection and the other objectives of Buddhism?

Are western Buddhists perfectionistic overachievers in regards to how they approach Buddhism?

Are western Buddhists perfectionistic overachievers in all aspects of their lives?
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Ben
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Re: Are Western Buddhists Perfectionistic Overachievers?

Post by Ben »

Sorry Chris, I'm still trying to get over "Theravadins are grim killjoys"
I'll have to get back to you on this one.
In perpetual cheerlessness,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

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christopher:::
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Re: Are Western Buddhists Perfectionistic Overachievers?

Post by christopher::: »

Sorry Ben...
Goofaholix wrote:I'm not sure how to answer as there are several ways this question could be interpreted (as is usual with polls), here's a few...
Well, i was thinking in terms of as compared with the Average Eastern Buddhist, are [most] Western Buddhists [that you've come into contact with] more Perfectionistic and (as compared to the Eastern Buddhists) more focused on (and/or desiring of) achieving complete liberation?

Is that helpful?

BTW, i know this is difficult to answer, and that my initial question sounds a bit "loaded" to begin with... the purpose was less to get a definitive "correct" view but to see the range of perceptions people may hold about this....

:heart:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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retrofuturist
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Re: Are Western Buddhists Perfectionistic Overachievers?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Christopher:::,

The extent to which your theory may be true, may actually have more to do with whether one is "born Buddhist" or makes a conscious decision to "choose Buddhism" amidst an array of competing options.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Ben
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Re: Are Western Buddhists Perfectionistic Overachievers?

Post by Ben »

christopher::: wrote:Sorry Ben...
I was joking, Chris!!!
christopher::: wrote: Well, i was thinking in terms of as compared with the Average Eastern Buddhist, are [most] Western Buddhists [that you've come into contact with] more Perfectionistic and (as compared to the Eastern Buddhists) more focused on (and/or desiring of) achieving complete liberation?"
I have to admit that I don't currently know any asian Buddhists except for those who visit us here on DW. What I do remember is something Ven Pesala said a couple of years ago. I think he was bemoaning that some members of the ex-pat Burmese community that provide dana to him didn't take to meditation with the zeal that he would have liked.
When I was living in Melbourne two of my colleagues were asian Buddhists and I couldn't believe the quiet sincerity that they approached their practice. It was inspiring.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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appicchato
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Re: Are Western Buddhists Perfectionistic Overachievers?

Post by appicchato »

Ben wrote:In perpetual cheerlessness,
I'm leaning this way too Ben...especially when I see some of the topics that appear here at DhammaWheel...
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Goofaholix
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Re: Are Western Buddhists Perfectionistic Overachievers?

Post by Goofaholix »

christopher::: wrote:Well, i was thinking in terms of as compared with the Average Eastern Buddhist, are [most] Western Buddhists [that you've come into contact with] more Perfectionistic and (as compared to the Eastern Buddhists) more focused on (and/or desiring of) achieving complete liberation?
I figured that was one of the likely candidates. The trouble is if we are talking about the average religious or merit making or superstitious or cultural eastern Buddhist I think there is no comparison as the practice and the goals are very different, so not a fair question.

However you could compare western and eastern practice or path oriented Buddhists with each other, then that would be a fair question assuming there are enough people on the board who have practiced both in the west and in the east to get a feeling on this.

As retro mentioned the difference is often to do with whether you were born into Buddhism or made a concious decision to become a Buddhist, but remember a lot of the most famous teachers were born as Buddhists.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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christopher:::
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Re: Are Western Buddhists Perfectionistic Overachievers?

Post by christopher::: »

appicchato wrote:
Ben wrote:In perpetual cheerlessness,
I'm leaning this way too Ben...especially when I see some of the topics that appear here at DhammaWheel...
Venerable, i apologize for contributing to your shift of mood. The topic title, poll question and responses can all be changed.

Do others here have suggestions for a more "skillful" wording of this topic and poll question, that might prompt insight and reflection, rather then cheerlessness and/or a reduction of equanimity?

:toilet:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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appicchato
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Re: Are Western Buddhists Perfectionistic Overachievers?

Post by appicchato »

Not to worry friend...I'm not singling you out here, not at all...and please don't change anything on my account...possibly it's my well worn feeling that I've expressed here many times that Caucasians (Westerners, of which I am one) tend to have a need to dissect everything, I do mean everything, to a fare-thee-well...and not necessarily (it seems to me) in the interest of knowledge, or insight...

Please don't mind me...sometimes I let slip and start typing when I should hold my mud...

Be well... :smile:
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Ben
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Re: Are Western Buddhists Perfectionistic Overachievers?

Post by Ben »

Dear Bhante
appicchato wrote:Not to worry friend...I'm not singling you out here, not at all...and please don't change anything on my account...possibly it's my well worn feeling that I've expressed here many times that Caucasians (Westerners, of which I am one) tend to have a need to dissect everything, I do mean everything, to a fare-thee-well...and not necessarily (it seems to me) in the interest of knowledge, or insight...

Please don't mind me...sometimes I let slip and start typing when I should hold my mud...

Be well... :smile:
Your insights are valuable and give us all pause for thought.
metta

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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Goofaholix
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Re: Are Western Buddhists Perfectionistic Overachievers?

Post by Goofaholix »

appicchato wrote:
Possibly it's my well worn feeling that I've expressed here many times that Caucasians (Westerners, of which I am one) tend to have a need to dissect everything, I do mean everything, to a fare-thee-well...and not necessarily (it seems to me) in the interest of knowledge, or insight...
I think this is very true, but please nobody setup a poll on this one.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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