Nibbana

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Nibbana

Post by Ceisiwr »

A metaphor may be required here. Concentration does not arise from the hitting of a hammer on a nail. Concentration arises from pulling the plug out of the bath tub which allows the water to swirl as a whirlpool through the outlet. Right samadhi is born from pulling out the plug

:goodpost:

Thanks for that metaphor Element, couldnt have put it better myself :smile:
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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kowtaaia
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Re: Nibbana

Post by kowtaaia »

tiltbillings wrote:
Conditioning, period. The second part of the question has already been answered.
Since this is a Theravadin forum, please be kind enough to back this up with a few quotes from the Pali suttas.
Let's see, now. In response to "It (the unconditioned) is when conditioning comes to an end."

...you asked: "What sort of conditioning...?"

...the response was: "Conditioning, period."

Your request for citation, doesn't make sense. Hopefully, a Theravadin forum doesn't exclude common sense. After all, the Buddha never said "one plus one, equals two". Does that mean it doesn't?
Where thought arises and where it dissolves,
There you should abide, O my son.



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kowtaaia
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Re: Nibbana

Post by kowtaaia »

Element wrote:
kowtaaia wrote:The psychological phenomenon is the conditioned state. The unconditioned is manifest when conditioning comes to an end. It's very simple. It has nothing to do with concentration, which is the focusing of thought, the conditioned.
The word Nibbana means "not piercing; without pain". Many searched for Nibbana and had their version of Nibbana.

In Buddhism, Nibbana is not the cessation of thought per se but the cessation of defilement.

There is a difference. There can be thought without defilement. There can be no thought but not the final uprooting of defilement.

In Buddhism, there are the immaterial jhanas. Whilst they do not involve the focusing of thought, they are considered concentration.

The spheres of infinite space and infinite consciousness are not the focusing of thought but they are concentration or calming abidings (MN 8).

Concentration is best described as the tranquillising of thought.

The view that samadhi is the focusing of thought is a major obstacle for meditators.

Whilst the mind naturally focuses or converges in samadhi or jhana, this natural focusing is born from abandoning or letting go.

A metaphor may be required here. Concentration does not arise from the hitting of a hammer on a nail. Concentration arises from pulling the plug out of a bath tub which allows the water to swirl as a whirlpool through the outlet. Right samadhi is born from pulling out the plug.

The Buddha said in MN 117: "Noble right concentration has right view as its forerunner and support".
‘The removal of lust, the removal of hatred, the removal of delusion is the designation for the element of Nibbana…. is the Deathless. The destruction of the taints is spoken of in that way’.

SN 45.7
Nibbana is cessation. Nibbana is unconditioned. The psychological phenomenon is the conditioned state, the reality of thought. Ipso facto, the unconditioned is not manifest when thought is functioning. If there is no thought, there is no inner to be defiled, no greed, no hatred and no delusion.

Right concentration, if it means anything at all, is focus without exclusion. That cannot be brought about by concentration (which is exclusion), but only by an inclusive attention that comes to the particular.
Where thought arises and where it dissolves,
There you should abide, O my son.



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Element

Re: Nibbana

Post by Element »

kowtaaia wrote:Nibbana is cessation. Nibbana is unconditioned.
Dhammanando has explained the matter precisely in Cessation & Awakening.

It is important to remember the Buddha had the eye of stainless insight.

[EDIT: Section about "our students" removed... and subsequent offtopic posts. - Retro.]
teacup_bo
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Re: Nibbana

Post by teacup_bo »

Element wrote:it is "cotton wool" Nibbana rather than fearless free Nibbana.
Hogwash. :popcorn:
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Dhammanando
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Re: Nibbana

Post by Dhammanando »

Hi Teacup,
teacup_bo wrote:
Element wrote:it is "cotton wool" Nibbana rather than fearless free Nibbana.
Hogwash. :popcorn:
Would you care to expand on this? With no accompanying clarification it just looks like a rather unhelpful insult.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
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Prasadachitta
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Re: Nibbana

Post by Prasadachitta »

Here is a quote from one of my teachers seminars regarding what conditions samsara.

The only definitions of the ‘unconditioned’ [asaṅkhata / asaṃskṛta] that I’ve found in the Pāli suttas are:
At Sāvatthi: Bhikkhus, I will teach you the ‘unconditioned’ [asaṅkhata] and the path leading to
the unconditioned. Listen to that … And what, bhikkhus, is the unconditioned? The
destruction of greed [lobha] ... hatred [dosa] ... and delusion [moha]: this is called the
unconditioned.
And what, bhikkhus, is the path leading to the unconditioned? Mindfulness directed to the
body: this is called the path leading to the unconditioned. [S iv. 359f.; ‘Connected Discourses
on the Unconditioned’]15
This definition of the ‘unconditioned’ is repeated verbatim in the following 38 suttas, with added
variations as to the path to the ‘unconditioned’ such as ‘serenity and insight’, ‘concentration with
thought and examination’, ‘the emptiness concentration, the signless concentration, the unbiased
concentration’, ‘the Eightfold Path’, etc. ‘Unconditioned’ here implies a state of being

unconditioned by greed, hatred, and delusion, or, we could add, conditioned by the āsravas, or
any factors that create samsara

14 See also: S ii. 26, and S iii. 96-100.
15 Translated in Bhikkhu Bodhi’s Connected Discourses of the Buddha, Vol. II.
11

So Basically if conditions do not include the outflows then those conditions are unconditioned. I think it is folly to say that there are no other conditions than the outflows. I think Nirvanna is best described as lacking conditions which cause suffering but I also think we can associate it with eternally ever changing conditions free of outflows.

Thats My take anyway.

When I contemplate what it means to be free of unwholesome Biases It occurs to me that we only end up underestimating the cosmic potential this represents.

Metta

Gabriel
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
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Dhammanando
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Re: Nibbana

Post by Dhammanando »

Hi Gabriel,
gabrielbranbury wrote:I think Nirvanna is best described as lacking conditions which cause suffering but I also think we can associate it with eternally ever changing conditions free of outflows.
I don't think we can.
  • Saṅkhata-lakkhaṇa Sutta

    tīṇimāni, bhikkhave, saṅkhatassa saṅkhatalakkhaṇāni. katamāni tīṇi? uppādo paññāyati, vayo paññāyati, ṭhitassa aññathattaṃ paññāyati. imāni kho, bhikkhave, tīṇi saṅkhatassa saṅkhatalakkhaṇānī ti.

    "There are, bhikkhus, these three conditioned characteristics of the conditioned. Which three? Arising is manifest. Disappearance is manifest. The changing of what persists is manifest. These, bhikkhus, are the three conditioned characteristics of the conditioned."
    (AN. i. 152)

    Asaṅkhata-lakkhaṇa Sutta

    tīṇimāni, bhikkhave, asaṅkhatassa asaṅkhatalakkhaṇāni. katamāni tīṇi? na uppādo paññāyati, na vayo paññāyati, na ṭhitassa aññathattaṃ paññāyati. imāni kho, bhikkhave, tīṇi asaṅkhatassa asaṅkhatalakkhaṇānī ti.

    "There are, bhikkhus, these three unconditioned characteristics of the unconditioned. Which three? No arising is manifest. No disappearance is manifest. No changing of what persists is manifest. These, bhikkhus, are the three unconditioned characteristics of the unconditioned."
    (ibid)
Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
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Prasadachitta
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Re: Nibbana

Post by Prasadachitta »

Hi Dhammanando,

After the bit I posted above my teacher goes on to state.
The other definition states:

Monks, there are these three conditioned marks of the conditioned [saṅkhatassa saṅkhattalakkhaṇāni].
What three?
Its origination [uppado] is discerned [paññāyati], its passing away [vayo] is discerned, its
changeability while it persists [ṭhitassa aññnathattaṃ] is discerned. These are the three
conditioned marks of the conditioned.
Monks, there are these three unconditioned marks of the unconditioned [asaṅkhatassa
asaṅkhatta-lakkhaṇāni]. Its origination is not discerned [na paññāyati], its passing away is
not discerned, its changeability while it persists aññnathattaṃ] is not discerned. These are the
three unconditioned marks of the unconditioned. [A i. 152; ‘Numerical Discourses of the
Buddha’, p55, Bhikkhu Bodhi ]

This latter account of the distinction between the conditioned and the unconditioned in terms of
‘marks’ I would regard as proto-abhidharma, and therefore late. It also reflects the later doctrine
of ‘momentariness’, not found in the suttas, being an abhidharma creation.
I just thought I would show that he has considered the sutta you site. I find that the only definition of conditioned v/s unconditioned which makes any sense on the level of conventional understanding is one that refers to a particular type of conditioning. Of course I am open to the possibility of what we might call an unconventional type of understanding and this could be what is being pointed to by the second definition. In other words I do not necessarily regard the Sutta you site in the same way as my teacher has stated above.

Metta

Gabriel
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
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Dhammanando
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Re: Nibbana

Post by Dhammanando »

Hi Gabriel,
gabrielbranbury wrote:Hi Dhammanando,

After the bit I posted above my teacher goes on to state.

[...]

This latter account of the distinction between the conditioned and the unconditioned in terms of
‘marks’ I would regard as proto-abhidharma, and therefore late. It also reflects the later doctrine
of ‘momentariness’, not found in the suttas, being an abhidharma creation.
Well, that's a little ironic. This sutta is most often cited by those who seek to refute the ābhidhammikas' conception of momentariness!

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
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Prasadachitta
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Re: Nibbana

Post by Prasadachitta »

Hi Dhammanando,

I can sort of see why the condition of there being a lack of samsaric conditions can be said to have these three marks of the unconditioned. :shock:

Once this unconditioned condition is discerned it does not arise, pass away or change.
(I think this may be what my teacher is missing. I will have to talk with him about this.)

I dont see why this means we cant also associate this unconditioned condition with other wholesome conditions which do arise, pass away, and change.

This is what I meant when I said...
I think Nirvanna is best described as lacking conditions which cause suffering but I also think we can associate it with eternally ever changing conditions free of outflows.
Metta

Gabriel
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
Element

Re: Nibbana

Post by Element »

teacup_bo wrote:
Element wrote:it is "cotton wool" Nibbana rather than fearless free Nibbana.
Hogwash. :popcorn:
Would you care to expand on this and share your experience of Nibbana with the forum?

Best wishes,
Element
teacup_bo
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Re: Nibbana

Post by teacup_bo »

Dhammanando wrote:Hi Teacup,
teacup_bo wrote:
Element wrote:it is "cotton wool" Nibbana rather than fearless free Nibbana.
Hogwash. :popcorn:
Would you care to expand on this? With no accompanying clarification it just looks like a rather unhelpful insult.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Well for one, this: It is baby Nibbana and teenage Nibbana. But if it is attached to or fixated on the unconditioned, it is "cotton wool" Nibbana rather than fearless free Nibbana.

The Buddha didn't teach different categories of Nibbana.
Last edited by Dhammanando on Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Made clear the distinction between writer's words and quoted content.
rowyourboat
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Re: Nibbana

Post by rowyourboat »

'sabba sankhara samatha' - the tranquilization of formations, another name for nibbana, does not refer to any tranuqilization known in samatha, or 'tranquility' meditation. The term formations or 'sankhara' is a very broad term- here it refers to everything which arises and passes away. Therefore the tranquilization of everything which arises and passes away is nibbana- as Ven dhammanando's sutta quote brilliantly refers to.
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
Element

Re: Nibbana

Post by Element »

teacup_bo wrote:The Buddha didn't teach different categories of Nibbana.
I think possibly Buddha taught certain practitioners, especially from other religions and sects, mistook certain experiences for Nibbana.
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