Store consciousness in Theravada

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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BubbaBuddhist
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Store consciousness in Theravada

Post by BubbaBuddhist »

While reading this article by the learned Venerable Dr. Walpole Rahula, cited in another thread:
http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma3/theramaya.html I ran across the following provocative reference:
Besides the idea of Sunyata is the concept of the store-consciousness in Mahayana Buddhism which has its seed in the Theravada texts. The Mahayanists have developed it into a deep psychology and philosophy.
I have always been fascinated with the concept of alaya-vijñāna from Yogachara. Some discussion from another forum compared Store consciousness to Bhvangha citta. This seemed to make perfect sense to me, however, I was also told comparing "Mahayana Wrong View" to Theravada concepts was inadmissible.

So here is the question: What "seed" in the Pali texts is Ven. Rahula speaking of? Is it, indeed Bvanga or something else?

J/ Bb
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Dhammanando
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Re: Store consciousness in Theravada

Post by Dhammanando »

Hi Bubba,
Bubbabuddhist wrote:So here is the question: What "seed" in the Pali texts is Ven. Rahula speaking of? Is it, indeed Bvanga or something else?
It is bhavanga. The identification of Yogacarin alayavijnana with Theravadin bhavanga actually originates not with W. Rahula, but in some Yogacarin text (I've forgotten which one, but I think it's either one of Asanga's or else the Samdhirnamocana Sutra).

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
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retrofuturist
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Re: Store consciousness in Theravada

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings bhante,

Where does bhavanga fit, with respect the schema of the six consciousnesses... eye, ear, nose, tongue, tactile and mind?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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tiltbillings
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Re: Store consciousness in Theravada

Post by tiltbillings »

A lengthy, detailed discussion of this question is found in William Waldron's study of origin of the alasya notion, THE BUDDHIST UNCONSCIOUS: The alaya-vijnana in the context of Indian Buddhist Thought.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Dhammanando
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Re: Store consciousness in Theravada

Post by Dhammanando »

Hi Retro,
retrofuturist wrote:Where does bhavanga fit, with respect the schema of the six consciousnesses... eye, ear, nose, tongue, tactile and mind?
It's one kind of mind-consciousness.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
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BubbaBuddhist
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Re: Store consciousness in Theravada

Post by BubbaBuddhist »

Hurrah, thanks Bhante, this is very good. Also thanks everyone else for the references for further inquiry.

J
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Heavenstorm
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Re: Store consciousness in Theravada

Post by Heavenstorm »

I see Yogacara as a major attempt to bridge the abhidharmas of the early Buddhist schools and later Mahayana sutras in order to increase the authenticity of the latter in the eyes of Buddhists.
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Re: Store consciousness in Theravada

Post by thecap »

Heavenstorm wrote:I see Yogacara as a major attempt to bridge the abhidharmas of the early Buddhist schools and later Mahayana sutras in order to increase the authenticity of the latter in the eyes of Buddhists.
It looks like the authenticity of words lies in the bhavanga of the beholder.
Element

Re: Store consciousness in Theravada

Post by Element »

thecap wrote:
Heavenstorm wrote:It looks like the authenticity of words lies in the bhavanga of the beholder.
Thanissaro provides some commentary here on bhavanga-citta.

For the very reason unclear minds cannot see arising & passing is the very reason why most religions hold there is a permanent soul.

Buddha did not spend six years searching for no reason, despite being able to enter jhana as a child. The mind is indeed illusive & delusive.

I disagree with you Cap. From a Modern Theravada perspective, I would say the bhavanga lies in the bhavatanha of the beholder.
Last edited by Element on Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
thecap
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Re: Store consciousness in Theravada

Post by thecap »

Element wrote:Thanissaro provides some commentary here on bhavanga-citta.
Thanissaro raises more questions than he answers, doesn't he?
For the very reason unclear minds cannot see arising & passing is the very reason why most religions hold there is a permanent soul.
Looks like it.
Buddha did not spend six years searching for no reason, despite being able to enter jhana as a child. Then mind is indeed illusive & delusive.
Yet the mind is not only one single entity, is it? It is layered, for example there is the conscious and the subconscious. When we remove defilements of the conscious, we can see the subconscious creating and destroying the 'I' and controlling us like a puppy through desires. Then we can draw the consequences and turn the tables, so to speak.
I disagree with you Cap. From a Modern Theravada perspective, I would say the bhavanga lies in the bhavatanha & vibhavatanha of the beholder.
To be clear, I understand bhavanga to be the condition for becoming in your sentence above. However, when we remove defilements of mind, does the condition simply go away, or is it still there, like the five aggregates are still there in an arahat? For I understand bhavanga to be the subconscious in a wider sense, and it doesn't just puff away in a cloud of smoke only because we catch it, does it? Does bhavanga not become a part of luminous mind? To be clear, what exactly do you mean by bhavanga, bhavantanha and vibhavantanha here? Please translate it as you understand it.
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Nicholas Weeks
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Re: Store consciousness in Theravada

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

I skimmed the chapter in Waldron's book on alaya-vijnana in the Theravada and I did not gain any clarity. Will have to study and not skim, I guess.
Good and evil have no fixed form. It's as easy to turn from doing bad to doing good as it is to flip over the hand from the back to the palm. It's simply up to us to do it. Master Hsuan Hua.
Element

Re: Store consciousness in Theravada

Post by Element »

thecap wrote: To be clear, what exactly do you mean by bhavanga, bhavantanha here?
I only meant the bhava tanha. Most people do not want to die. Regarding the bhavanga, it is unclear insight. Buddha said all consciousness, gross or subtle, have the three marks of conditioned phenomena.

In Buddhism there is only one permanent phenomena, namely, the Nibbana element.
thecap
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Re: Store consciousness in Theravada

Post by thecap »

Element wrote:
thecap wrote: To be clear, what exactly do you mean by bhavanga, bhavantanha here?
I only meant the bhava tanha. Most people do not want to die. Regarding the bhavanga, it is unclear insight. Buddha said all consciousness, gross or subtle, have the three marks of conditioned phenomena.

In Buddhism there is only one permanent phenomena, namely, the Nibbana element.
Of course, you're right, friend Element. How dare thecap diverge from the goal. :embarassed: I just hope nibbana here lies not in the vibhavatanha of the beholder. :shock: ;) :meditate:
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Re: Store consciousness in Theravada

Post by Javi »

Dhammanando wrote:Hi Bubba,
Bubbabuddhist wrote:So here is the question: What "seed" in the Pali texts is Ven. Rahula speaking of? Is it, indeed Bvanga or something else?
It is bhavanga. The identification of Yogacarin alayavijnana with Theravadin bhavanga actually originates not with W. Rahula, but in some Yogacarin text (I've forgotten which one, but I think it's either one of Asanga's or else the Samdhirnamocana Sutra).

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
I know this is an old post but I wanted to add that it is from Asanga's Mahayanasamgraha, as quoted in Waldron page 131:
I.11 a. Moreover, the alaya-vijñana is also taught in the Disciple’s
Vehicle through different figures of speech (paryaya). …

b. In the scriptures (agama) of the Mahasadghikas, too, the expression
“root-consciousness” (mjla-vijñana) occurs. By this synonym
also this [alaya-vijñana] is taught. It is like a tree which
depends upon its root.

c. In the scriptures of the Mahnkasakas also the expression “the
aggregate which lasts as long as samsara” (asadsarika-skandha)
occurs. By this synonym also this [alaya-vijñana] is taught,
because although at certain places and at certain times it is seen
that the bodily form (rjpa) and the mind (citta) are interrupted,
their seeds in the alaya-vijñana are not interrupted.

d. In the scriptures of the Ariya Sthaviras, also, the following [stages
of the perceptual process] occur: life-continuum, seeing, knowing,
adverting, exerting, examining, and the seventh, engaging
(bhavanga, darkana, jñana, avarjana, iñjita, prekha, pravartana).

I.12. Therefore, the support of the knowable (jñeyakraya), which is
taught as the alaya-vijñana, the appropriating-consciousness, citta, the
alaya,5 the root-consciousness, the aggregate which lasts as long as
samsara, and the life-continuum, are [all] the alaya-vijñana. [By these
synonyms] the alaya-vijñana is established as the royal path.

(MSg I.10–12)
Vayadhammā saṅkhārā appamādena sampādethā — All things decay and disappoint, it is through vigilance that you succeed — Mahāparinibbāna Sutta

Self-taught poverty is a help toward philosophy, for the things which philosophy attempts to teach by reasoning, poverty forces us to practice. — Diogenes of Sinope

I have seen all things that are done under the sun, and behold, all is vanity and a chase after wind — Ecclesiastes 1.14
form
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Re: Store consciousness in Theravada

Post by form »

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhavanga

Becoming? Clinging leads to becoming?

Unconscious eh?
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