Big beings?

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pops
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Re: Big beings?

Post by pops »

cappuccino wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 11:41 pm we can't travel to Proxima b


hence per world, is logical
Who is 'we' ?

You know that for sure, that there are no beings which are able to cross vast distances from which you say, that they cant' be crossed?

Dependend on such an assumption (there are no beings which are able to cross those vast distances/its not possible to ) you state: 'per world is logical'. If you trust Buddhas teachings (some statements you can read in the suttas) you have to reevaluate your assumption.

Look at an ant (for example). For an ant the distances an elephant can cover are impossible to cross.

Instead of going into a further explanation why 'worldsystem' or 'universe' would be the right choice (instead of 'solar system' or 'world') i want to ask: why could there only be one buddha per world? What would be the reason for that?
Last edited by pops on Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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pops
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Re: Big beings?

Post by pops »

TRobinson465 wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:16 am
2600htz wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:02 pm
pops wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 3:30 pm

I'm pretty sure it's not one Buddha at a time per Solar System. I remember more like 'system of worlds'. Maybe a galaxy is meant. Care to investigate which sutta we are speaking of? I don't have any clue, where i read it. But it was a sutta, that i'm sure of.
Hi:

From MN-115
They understand: ‘It’s impossible for two perfected ones, fully awakened Buddhas to arise in the same solar system at the same time. But it is possible for just one perfected one, a fully awakened Buddha, to arise in one solar system.’ They understand: ‘It’s impossible for two wheel-turning monarchs to arise in the same solar system at the same time. But it is possible for just one wheel-turning monarch to arise in one solar system.’
But you are right, this "solar system" quote i have only seen it in Bhikkhu Sujato translation. I think its Bhikkhu Bodhi´s the one that translate as "world system". I do not know which one is correct, and probably some people believe its a solar system, others a universe, others a galaxy, etc.

Regards.
The word being translated as solar system is "lokadhātu" I believe. Which in most texts ive read is usually translated as "world system". Assuming im matching up the Pali words correctly then the world system includes the whole nine yards of Buddhist cosmology as a galaxy made up of one thousand of these world systems has "a thousand moons, a thousand suns, a thousand Sinerus king of mountains, a thousand Indias, a thousand Western Continents, a thousand Northern Continents, a thousand Eastern Continents, four thousand oceans, four thousand Great Kings, a thousand realms of the Gods of the Four Great Kings, a thousand realms of the Gods of the Thirty-Three, of the Gods of Yama, of the Joyful Gods, of the Gods who Love to Create, of the Gods who Control the Creations of Others, and a thousand Brahmā realms."

Which would imply more than just the solar system as we know it in modern science. I believe its one Buddha per set of 31 realms of existence is what he was saying.


https://suttacentral.net/an3.80/en/sujato
:goodpost:
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confusedlayman
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Re: Big beings?

Post by confusedlayman »

pops wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:01 am
TRobinson465 wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:16 am
2600htz wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:02 pm

Hi:

From MN-115



But you are right, this "solar system" quote i have only seen it in Bhikkhu Sujato translation. I think its Bhikkhu Bodhi´s the one that translate as "world system". I do not know which one is correct, and probably some people believe its a solar system, others a universe, others a galaxy, etc.

Regards.
The word being translated as solar system is "lokadhātu" I believe. Which in most texts ive read is usually translated as "world system". Assuming im matching up the Pali words correctly then the world system includes the whole nine yards of Buddhist cosmology as a galaxy made up of one thousand of these world systems has "a thousand moons, a thousand suns, a thousand Sinerus king of mountains, a thousand Indias, a thousand Western Continents, a thousand Northern Continents, a thousand Eastern Continents, four thousand oceans, four thousand Great Kings, a thousand realms of the Gods of the Four Great Kings, a thousand realms of the Gods of the Thirty-Three, of the Gods of Yama, of the Joyful Gods, of the Gods who Love to Create, of the Gods who Control the Creations of Others, and a thousand Brahmā realms."

Which would imply more than just the solar system as we know it in modern science. I believe its one Buddha per set of 31 realms of existence is what he was saying.


https://suttacentral.net/an3.80/en/sujato
:goodpost:
1000 brahma realms is part of 31 planes.. its not 3100 planes of existance... which means one buddha at a time in unlimited world
dont think
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cappuccino
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Re: Big beings?

Post by cappuccino »

pops wrote: why could there only be one Buddha per world? What would be the reason for that?
in order to learn properly
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Re: Big beings?

Post by TRobinson465 »

confusedlayman wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:19 am
1000 brahma realms is part of 31 planes.. its not 3100 planes of existance... which means one buddha at a time in unlimited world
Actually there is only about 20 or so Brahma realms in the 31 planes. I think in this case he was talking about the Brahma realms as a whole being one thing.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.
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Re: Big beings?

Post by TRobinson465 »

pops wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 6:59 am why could there only be one buddha per world? What would be the reason for that?
Well there can only be one universal monarch per world system too because a universal monarch rules the whole world system using his wheel jewel to travel between realms. There obviously can't be two sovereigns at a time. I'd imagine it's similar with a Buddha as buddhas are perfect, peerless, and supreme among gods and men. I'd imagine having two buddhas in the same world system would cause issues with them being "peerless" since there is another Buddha who is his peer in the world system. Its also somewhat inefficient in my opinion to have more than one Buddha at a time in the same world system. Since the arising of teaching buddhas is so rare.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.
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pops
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Re: Big beings?

Post by pops »

TRobinson465 wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 3:29 pm
pops wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 6:59 am why could there only be one buddha per world? What would be the reason for that?
Well there can only be one universal monarch per world system too because a universal monarch rules the whole world system using his wheel jewel to travel between realms. There obviously can't be two sovereigns at a time. I'd imagine it's similar with a Buddha as buddhas are perfect, peerless, and supreme among gods and men. I'd imagine having two buddhas in the same world system would cause issues with them being "peerless" since there is another Buddha who is his peer in the world system. Its also somewhat inefficient in my opinion to have more than one Buddha at a time in the same world system. Since the arising of teaching buddhas is so rare.
My implied question (specifically i wanted to encourage to think about why it specifially has to be one buddha only per world and not one per ....) why it can only be one Buddha per worldsystem (a term we obviously have to understand in a much larger sense, than one would normally do) aimed more at a 'technical'/''structural' answer. Kind of a 'physical law' (maybe a crude metaphor) or sort of that. Something, that simply is impossible, like (f.e.) it is impossible that enlightenmend can happen in the lower 3 or 4 (?) realms (the other translated term. At least I suppose so. That the terms realm and worldsystem are not just different translations.

I could look it up, if you are interested: There is another interesting 'figure' in the buddhist cosmolgy (beings belong to that view). I don't know the english word, in german the translation was kind of (i may be terribly wrong ... but i think ... i am not): the world stopper.

Sounded to me (fundamental) 'lawesk', also.

That's a wide field of interesting (and ... in at least some cases pretty sure unwholesome) speculations. :juggling:
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