Dear Classical Forum,
At the end of MN 22, Buddha lists his disciples, namely, faith followers, dhamma followers, stream enterers, once returners, non returners & arahants.
Is puthujjano a non-disciple or non-enlightened?
Do faith followers and dhamma followers remain puthujjano?
Thank you
Element
What is puthujjano?
Re: What is puthujjano?
Hi Element,
If you have access to Gombrich's How Buddhism Began, I think he talks about the different classes of disciples in the essay: Retracing an ancient Debate: How insight worsted concentration. Unfortunately, my copy is in a shipping container on route to my new home. It should answer that part of your question relating to how faith followers et al correspond with the four classes of ariyan attainment.
Metta
Ben
If you have access to Gombrich's How Buddhism Began, I think he talks about the different classes of disciples in the essay: Retracing an ancient Debate: How insight worsted concentration. Unfortunately, my copy is in a shipping container on route to my new home. It should answer that part of your question relating to how faith followers et al correspond with the four classes of ariyan attainment.
Metta
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- appicchato
- Posts: 1602
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:47 am
- Location: Bridge on the River Kwae
Re: What is puthujjano?
Hi Element,Element wrote:Dear Classical Forum,
At the end of MN 22, Buddha lists his disciples, namely, faith followers, dhamma followers, stream enterers, once returners, non returners & arahants.
Is puthujjano a non-disciple or non-enlightened?
Do faith followers and dhamma followers remain puthujjano?
Thank you
Element
A puthujjana is a worldling...one who has not overcome the ten fetters, so is still bound to the cycle of birth and death...
To answer your questions, a puthujjana can be a disciple, but is unenlightened...and they will remain as such until attaining path and fruit of an ariyan...
Be well...
Re: What is puthujjano?
Hello Element, all,
puthujjana - lit.: 'one of the many folk', 'worldling', ordinary man, is any layman or monk who is still possessed of all the 10 fetters (samyojana, q.v.) binding to the round of rebirths, and therefore has not yet reached any of the 4 stages of holiness (s. ariya-puggala).
"Whoso is neither freed from the 3 fetters (personality-belief, sceptical doubt, attachment to mere rule and ritual), nor is on the way to lose these 3 things, such a one is called a worlding" (Pug. 9).
According to Com. to M.9, a 'worlding' may be
(1) an outsider (a non-Buddhist) who, if he believed in moral causation, may be said to have right view to that extent; but he has not the 'knowledge conforming to the Truths' (saccānulomika-ñāna), as has
(2) the 'worldling inside the Buddha's Dispensation' (sāsanika).
A worlding who professes Buddhism, may be either
a 'blind worldling' (andha-p.) who has neither knowledge of, nor interest in the fundamental teaching (the Truths, groups, etc.);
or he is a 'noble worldling' (kalyāna-p.), who has such knowledge and earnestly strives to understand and practise the Teaching. -
See Atthasālini Tr. II, 451 (tr. by 'average man'); Com. to M.1, D.1.
http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_r/puthujjana.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
From Puthujjana to the Buddha
( Reference: Brahmajala Sutta)
http://www.triplegem.plus.com/ariyacht.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
metta
Chris
puthujjana - lit.: 'one of the many folk', 'worldling', ordinary man, is any layman or monk who is still possessed of all the 10 fetters (samyojana, q.v.) binding to the round of rebirths, and therefore has not yet reached any of the 4 stages of holiness (s. ariya-puggala).
"Whoso is neither freed from the 3 fetters (personality-belief, sceptical doubt, attachment to mere rule and ritual), nor is on the way to lose these 3 things, such a one is called a worlding" (Pug. 9).
According to Com. to M.9, a 'worlding' may be
(1) an outsider (a non-Buddhist) who, if he believed in moral causation, may be said to have right view to that extent; but he has not the 'knowledge conforming to the Truths' (saccānulomika-ñāna), as has
(2) the 'worldling inside the Buddha's Dispensation' (sāsanika).
A worlding who professes Buddhism, may be either
a 'blind worldling' (andha-p.) who has neither knowledge of, nor interest in the fundamental teaching (the Truths, groups, etc.);
or he is a 'noble worldling' (kalyāna-p.), who has such knowledge and earnestly strives to understand and practise the Teaching. -
See Atthasālini Tr. II, 451 (tr. by 'average man'); Com. to M.1, D.1.
http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_r/puthujjana.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
From Puthujjana to the Buddha
( Reference: Brahmajala Sutta)
http://www.triplegem.plus.com/ariyacht.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
- Dhammanando
- Posts: 6491
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
- Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun
Re: What is puthujjano?
Hi Element,
As to whether he is a disciple, it depends what you mean by this.
If you mean ariyasāvaka (noble disciple), then no.
If you mean saraṇagata (one who has gone to the Buddha etc. for refuge) then some puthujjanas are and some are not.
Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
A puthujjana is certainly non-enlightened.Element wrote:Is puthujjano a non-disciple or non-enlightened?
As to whether he is a disciple, it depends what you mean by this.
If you mean ariyasāvaka (noble disciple), then no.
If you mean saraṇagata (one who has gone to the Buddha etc. for refuge) then some puthujjanas are and some are not.
No, the saddhānusārī and dhammānusārī have both arrived at the path of stream-entry (sotāpatti-magga).Do faith followers and dhamma followers remain puthujjano?
Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)