Lack of opportunity.
I don't care about the Bhikkhuni title - being a ten precept nun would be very acceptable. I once contacted Ajahn Vayama a few years back - there was little opportunity with only the slim chance of a single vacancy occuring, and that would result in a tidal wave of applications from all over the world.
And from what I've seen and heard, the fantasised idea of what ordaining is like is very different to what actually occurs. Very high rates of westerners disrobe witin a year or so, male and female. It can be lonely and westerners can be cut off by language problems in south asian countries. Monastic life may not measure up to the fantasy.
And at the physical level, daily physical work has to be done, one doesn't just sit and meditate and have dhamma talks. Health care may be a factor. Thailand is O.K. with its' Bhikkhu Hospital but elsewhere .....
I know a woman who was under 10 precepts (in Oz) and was continually unwell with stomach problems from living on Dana - no ability to ensure the hygience under which the food had been prepared, and this was in a monastery in Oz with a kitchen. Thailand, at least, has good medical care for the Bhikkhus - not so in some other countries.
What is holding you back from ordaining?
Re: What is holding you back from ordaining?
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
Re: What is holding you back from ordaining?
Some of my reasons were already mentioned, such as family. But there is another reason: I am not convinced it would be productive in my case.Wind wrote: How about you guys? Have you thought about ordaining? What is holding you back?
Years ago, I met a young woman from Thailand (she is now a friend). She came to Germany for her PhD in physics. She told me then that she came to Germany to learn physics, not to become German. I knew what she meant and I didn't have a problem with that.
Ordaining is more than choosing to learn and practice Dhamma. It means to change one's culture. Monasteries and the monks there come from a culture and this culture has not only influenced their language and behaviour but also their way of thinking. Ordaining means to learn languages, and behavioural patterns, whom to bow to in what way, whom to address in what way, how to live, how to sleep, what to wear, the culture, the ideologies. I don't see why this should be necessary to learn Dhamma just as I don't see why it should be necessary to be German to study physics.
So I say: I want to learn the Buddha's Dhamma but I don't want to become Thai (or Burmese, etc).
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Re: What is holding you back from ordaining?
It's all part of the program...
Re: What is holding you back from ordaining?
It's interesting to see that when we strip away all the distractions of daily living, what we find is boredom, the ever present tedium of not having sense stimulation that we have become so accustomed to. I think a portion of Monks and Nuns disrobe because the boredom get's to them. But what is the boredom really? It's dukkha in a very pure, unadulterated form. It's a complete dissatisfaction with having nothing to worry about. We want the drug of sense stimulation, we don't care that it burns us up from the inside because at least it manages to distract the mind from that underlying dukkha, which has been there all along.cooran wrote: And from what I've seen and heard, the fantasised idea of what ordaining is like is very different to what actually occurs. Very high rates of westerners disrobe witin a year or so, male and female. It can be lonely and westerners can be cut off by language problems in south asian countries. Monastic life may not measure up to the fantasy.
I think perhaps some people are not ready to face up to the fact that this is how life is, it's always been that way, and it always will be. We can continue to distract ourselves right up until we breath our last if we choose, but in reality the distractions are more painful than the boredom itself. Craving and delusion play some cruel tricks on the minds of mankind.
metta
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
- retrofuturist
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- Contact:
Re: What is holding you back from ordaining?
Greetings Jack,
Nice post.
"She refused to be bored chiefly because she wasn't boring" - Zelda Fitzgerald
Metta,
Retro.
Nice post.
"She refused to be bored chiefly because she wasn't boring" - Zelda Fitzgerald
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: What is holding you back from ordaining?
Hi Freawaru,
With Metta,
Guy
Have you considered that by living according to rules which you might not always like or agree with there is the potential benefit of getting a good look at craving and thereby understand it's unsatisfactory nature? Surrendering to the Vinaya might not be pleasant, but it certainly produces a lot of good monks and nuns (both Asians and Westerners) who have developed a deep understanding of the Four Noble Truths.Freawaru wrote:Some of my reasons were already mentioned, such as family. But there is another reason: I am not convinced it would be productive in my case.Wind wrote: How about you guys? Have you thought about ordaining? What is holding you back?
Years ago, I met a young woman from Thailand (she is now a friend). She came to Germany for her PhD in physics. She told me then that she came to Germany to learn physics, not to become German. I knew what she meant and I didn't have a problem with that.
Ordaining is more than choosing to learn and practice Dhamma. It means to change one's culture. Monasteries and the monks there come from a culture and this culture has not only influenced their language and behaviour but also their way of thinking. Ordaining means to learn languages, and behavioural patterns, whom to bow to in what way, whom to address in what way, how to live, how to sleep, what to wear, the culture, the ideologies. I don't see why this should be necessary to learn Dhamma just as I don't see why it should be necessary to be German to study physics.
So I say: I want to learn the Buddha's Dhamma but I don't want to become Thai (or Burmese, etc).
With Metta,
Guy
Four types of letting go:
1) Giving; expecting nothing back in return
2) Throwing things away
3) Contentment; wanting to be here, not wanting to be anywhere else
4) "Teflon Mind"; having a mind which doesn't accumulate things
- Ajahn Brahm
1) Giving; expecting nothing back in return
2) Throwing things away
3) Contentment; wanting to be here, not wanting to be anywhere else
4) "Teflon Mind"; having a mind which doesn't accumulate things
- Ajahn Brahm
Re: What is holding you back from ordaining?
To learn Dhamma it is not necessary to ordain but to practice Dhamma to the fullest, then ordaining is beneficial.Freawaru wrote:Wind wrote: I don't see why this should be necessary to learn Dhamma just as I don't see why it should be necessary to be German to study physics.
Re: What is holding you back from ordaining?
Hi Guy,
I have already used plenty of effort to become German, to act German, to think German. I don't agree or like everything German if that is what you think. But it is the culture I happen to live in so I considered it useful. To become, say, Thai, I would have to brainwash myself and program my personality anew. I have had lots of long discussions with my Thai friend to have a good idea of the differences. Some can be pretended easily, such as behaviour and language, but others really require a complete inner change.
For example, one of the most important aspects of the German culture (and it is one I like because I see the benefits regarding developing awareness) is Artistic licence. The Thais don't have it. On the other hand they have an aspect in their culture that is completely missing in the German one, usually translated as "respect" (don't know the Thai name) but it is something else than what we call respect in Germany, it does not exist here. And worse, it does not go well with Artistic license. Some years ago there was this incident of the movie "Anna and the king of Siam", an never ending offence to the Thais because they don't understand Artistic license. Discussing the movie and the problem with my Thai friend and others (both Thai and not Thai) on an internet forum I did what I always do when I try to understand and analyse a problem: I used samadhi. In this case, samadhi with the Thai way of thinking and feeling. But for the duration of it I had to completely detach from my "German" personality, including Artistic License. It was an interesting experience and I would not want to miss it but I don't see any benefits to practice it for a longer duration. Personalities, cultures, and so on, they are all exchangeable.
The lack of pleasantness is one of the reasons why I think that today's defintion of bhikkhu is not correct. Bhikkhu is an inner change, implying a steadfastness of awareness (among other things)
Here is one regarding the sangha:
So, for me "ordaining", "going forth" means something else than a social change or reprogramming one's personality to fit the forms and rituals of a different culture. It means an inner change, more profound than any social commitment can ever be.
Don't get me wrong. Anyone who wants to ordain socially I would tell: go ahead. But use this chance not only to alter your personality but to be aware of the inner mechanisms that alter them, the mental and physical processes, the how. Because in this way one can become not just a Bhikkhu in the social sense but a Bhikkhu in the sense I accept.
Yes, I have. Been there, done that. Time to move on.Guy wrote: Have you considered that by living according to rules which you might not always like or agree with there is the potential benefit of getting a good look at craving and thereby understand it's unsatisfactory nature?
I have already used plenty of effort to become German, to act German, to think German. I don't agree or like everything German if that is what you think. But it is the culture I happen to live in so I considered it useful. To become, say, Thai, I would have to brainwash myself and program my personality anew. I have had lots of long discussions with my Thai friend to have a good idea of the differences. Some can be pretended easily, such as behaviour and language, but others really require a complete inner change.
For example, one of the most important aspects of the German culture (and it is one I like because I see the benefits regarding developing awareness) is Artistic licence. The Thais don't have it. On the other hand they have an aspect in their culture that is completely missing in the German one, usually translated as "respect" (don't know the Thai name) but it is something else than what we call respect in Germany, it does not exist here. And worse, it does not go well with Artistic license. Some years ago there was this incident of the movie "Anna and the king of Siam", an never ending offence to the Thais because they don't understand Artistic license. Discussing the movie and the problem with my Thai friend and others (both Thai and not Thai) on an internet forum I did what I always do when I try to understand and analyse a problem: I used samadhi. In this case, samadhi with the Thai way of thinking and feeling. But for the duration of it I had to completely detach from my "German" personality, including Artistic License. It was an interesting experience and I would not want to miss it but I don't see any benefits to practice it for a longer duration. Personalities, cultures, and so on, they are all exchangeable.
It would be pleasant if one would understand it correctly. There are many suttas that point out that to change from householder to bhikkhu is utterly pleasant. The fact that is is considered and experienced as hard only shows that the interpretation of the Vinaya rules is not correct.Surrendering to the Vinaya might not be pleasant,
The lack of pleasantness is one of the reasons why I think that today's defintion of bhikkhu is not correct. Bhikkhu is an inner change, implying a steadfastness of awareness (among other things)
Now, what is "eating", what is "remote lodging"? I agree with Buddhadasa Bhikkhu that "eating" refers to "experiencing" because that is how the suttas make sense, a Bhikkhu experiences only awareness, because all the rest is the object of insight, thus he is moderate. Similar for "remote lodging": awareness distances one from all experiences, all absorptions, all feelings, and so on. Thus it is a "remote lodging".Not blaming, not harming;
Restrained by the code of Dhamma-Vinaya,
Moderate in eating, remote lodging;
Exertion in Meditation;
This is the teaching of all the Buddhas ..
http://what-buddha-said.net/Canon/Sutta ... tm#Chapter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; VII The Arahat - Arahanta
Here is one regarding the sangha:
Ever heard of the social sangha to be united? They argue and argue and argue. This is not the Sangha of the suttas.Pleasant is the arising of a Buddha.
Pleasant is the teaching of the Dhamma.
Pleasant is peace & unity in the Sangha.
Pleasant is the harmony of those united.
Today, the vinaya is interpreted in terms of forms and rituals and a Bhikkhu is supposed to attach himself to them. But attaching himself to forms and rituals means he is not a Bhikkhu as defined in the suttas.Not merely from receiving alms is one a Bhikkhu.
The one attached to forms and rituals is not
truly to be regarded as a Bhikkhu.
Dropping both good and bad action means to let them happen on their own, automatically. It refers to all those activity our personality does. Awareness separates us from this activity, thus the "I" that is identified with awareness is not acting either good or badly. "Celibate" refers to the abstinence from absorption, the identification with the states, the non-lucid part of samadhi. "Walking through the world aware": one does not loose awareness in any of the lokas. "Untouched": Awareness is not touched by whatever is experienced, the distance, remember? "Clever", control, insight, wisdom.Whoever drops both good and bad action,
lives celibate, walks through the world aware,
untouched and clever, such one is indeed a Bhikkhu.
So, for me "ordaining", "going forth" means something else than a social change or reprogramming one's personality to fit the forms and rituals of a different culture. It means an inner change, more profound than any social commitment can ever be.
Are you sure it was this that produced them? Or were they already there due to good kamma and only used it because it is a social requirement?but it certainly produces a lot of good monks and nuns (both Asians and Westerners) who have developed a deep understanding of the Four Noble Truths.
Don't get me wrong. Anyone who wants to ordain socially I would tell: go ahead. But use this chance not only to alter your personality but to be aware of the inner mechanisms that alter them, the mental and physical processes, the how. Because in this way one can become not just a Bhikkhu in the social sense but a Bhikkhu in the sense I accept.
Re: What is holding you back from ordaining?
Hi Freawaru,
Interesting views, some of them I agree with. However, I'd like you to clarify one thing:
With Metta,
Guy
Interesting views, some of them I agree with. However, I'd like you to clarify one thing:
By this are you implying that the rules of training are not essential? My understanding is that the fetter of "sīlabbata-parāmāsa" means that we wrongly believe that simply by keeping the precepts we will get enlightened whereas the right view is that although we actually do need to keep the precepts there is still more work to do yet.Freawaru wrote:Today, the vinaya is interpreted in terms of forms and rituals and a Bhikkhu is supposed to attach himself to them. But attaching himself to forms and rituals means he is not a Bhikkhu as defined in the suttas.
With Metta,
Guy
Four types of letting go:
1) Giving; expecting nothing back in return
2) Throwing things away
3) Contentment; wanting to be here, not wanting to be anywhere else
4) "Teflon Mind"; having a mind which doesn't accumulate things
- Ajahn Brahm
1) Giving; expecting nothing back in return
2) Throwing things away
3) Contentment; wanting to be here, not wanting to be anywhere else
4) "Teflon Mind"; having a mind which doesn't accumulate things
- Ajahn Brahm
Re: What is holding you back from ordaining?
Hi Guy,
Think of the practice of kayanupassana:
And how does a monk dwell contemplating (the nature of) the body in the body in regard to himself?
It depends on what you mean by "precepts". Of course, the precept "celibacy" as I described (aka, restraining oneself from full identification/unification with any state) it is essential but in itself it is not enough to reach Liberation. Something more is required. As to the "celibacy" in the biological/social sense I don't think this is essential, just convenient if one does not want the possible social responsibilities.Guy wrote:
Interesting views, some of them I agree with. However, I'd like you to clarify one thing:
By this are you implying that the rules of training are not essential? My understanding is that the fetter of "sīlabbata-parāmāsa" means that we wrongly believe that simply by keeping the precepts we will get enlightened whereas the right view is that although we actually do need to keep the precepts there is still more work to do yet.Freawaru wrote:Today, the vinaya is interpreted in terms of forms and rituals and a Bhikkhu is supposed to attach himself to them. But attaching himself to forms and rituals means he is not a Bhikkhu as defined in the suttas.
Think of the practice of kayanupassana:
And how does a monk dwell contemplating (the nature of) the body in the body in regard to himself?
This does not change during biological sex. For someone who can directly be aware of and discern those organs it does not make a difference whether he has biological sex or not. He will simply discern and analyse the different activity of the lungs, heart, intestines and so on during the different physical activities just as he does during walking and resting. Same with vedananupassana, such a person would just contemplate the pleasant feeling of the orgasm, detached, aware, knowing, discerning.Idha bhikkhu ajjhattaü kàyaü -
Here a monk in regard to himself -
uddhaü pàdatalà, adho kesamatthakà, tacapariyantaü,
from the sole of the feet upwards, from the hair of the head down, bounded by the skin,
påraü 01 nànappakàrassa asucino 02 - paccavekkhati:
and filled with manifold impurities - reflects (thus):
Atthi imasmiü kàye:
There are in this body:
kesà, lomà, nakhà, dantà, taco,
hairs of the head, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin,
maüsaü, nahàru, 03 aññhi, 04 aññhimiÿjà, 05 vakkaü,
flesh, sinews, bones, bone-marrow, kidney,
hadayaü, yakanaü, kilomakaü, pihakaü, papphàsaü,
heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs,
antaü, antaguõaü, udariyaü, karãsaü,
intestines, mesentery, undigested food, excrement,
pittaü, semhaü, pubbo, lohitaü, sedo, medo,
bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat,
assu, vasà, kheëo, siïghàõikà, 06 lasikà, muttan-ti. 07
tears, grease, spit, mucus, synovial fluid, urine.
http://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/T ... assana.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Idha bhikkhu sukhaü vedanaü vediyamàno 02
Here a monk when experiencing a pleasant feeling
sukhaü vedanaü vediyàmãû ti pajànàti;
knows I experience a pleasant feelingû;
http://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/T ... assana.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: What is holding you back from ordaining?
Hi Freawaru,
I understand celibacy to be supportive of entering Jhanas (since the mind of a person who is celibate in body, speech and mind is not inclined towards sensual desire/the first hindrance) and to the development of wisdom, ultimately leading to Nibbana. This is why it is impossible for Arahants and Anagamis to even think a thought motivated by lust, let alone commit a sexual act since they have irreversibly removed the hindrance of sensual desire.
...but now I've gone quite off topic...
Bringing this back to the original topic...is it possible that we "conveniently" interpret the Suttas and the Vinaya in such a way that suits our pursuit of sensuality in an attempt to have the "best of both worlds"?
With Metta,
Guy
So are you saying that celibacy is motivated by an avoidance of responsibility?As to the "celibacy" in the biological/social sense I don't think this is essential, just convenient if one does not want the possible social responsibilities.
I understand celibacy to be supportive of entering Jhanas (since the mind of a person who is celibate in body, speech and mind is not inclined towards sensual desire/the first hindrance) and to the development of wisdom, ultimately leading to Nibbana. This is why it is impossible for Arahants and Anagamis to even think a thought motivated by lust, let alone commit a sexual act since they have irreversibly removed the hindrance of sensual desire.
...but now I've gone quite off topic...
Bringing this back to the original topic...is it possible that we "conveniently" interpret the Suttas and the Vinaya in such a way that suits our pursuit of sensuality in an attempt to have the "best of both worlds"?
With Metta,
Guy
Four types of letting go:
1) Giving; expecting nothing back in return
2) Throwing things away
3) Contentment; wanting to be here, not wanting to be anywhere else
4) "Teflon Mind"; having a mind which doesn't accumulate things
- Ajahn Brahm
1) Giving; expecting nothing back in return
2) Throwing things away
3) Contentment; wanting to be here, not wanting to be anywhere else
4) "Teflon Mind"; having a mind which doesn't accumulate things
- Ajahn Brahm
Re: What is holding you back from ordaining?
Just wanted to thank Freawaru for some interesting food for thought that has resonated with me.
At the end of the day, we cannot know until we find out, and this to me seems an extremely individual task with only some pretty rough signposts ...
At the end of the day, we cannot know until we find out, and this to me seems an extremely individual task with only some pretty rough signposts ...
Re: What is holding you back from ordaining?
Hi Guy,
They are not robots, you know.
Just stumbled on this sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
As you can see the five clinging-aggregates are still there for an arahant. An arahant just does not cling to them.
One of the possible reasons. I mean, when one intends to spend years in caves the responsibility to feed small mouths can become quite a problem. The Visuddhimagga describes the best "monastery" one can choose to practice jhana and kasina meditation - as a summary the best are those without distractions and responsibilities. There is a difference between concentration meditation and mindfulness meditation. To reach higher states of concentration one needs to concentrate, right? Concentration means to block out everything but the object of concentration for certain durations of time. How to do that if one has to attend to babies? How to do that when one has to struggle within a community and argue? Mindfulness meditation on the other hand is different, because it bases on an already reached distance to the mind and body processes. Mindfulness meditation means one has to develop this awareness and distance to the mind and body processes to longer and longer periods and into more and more difficult situations and states of mind and to more depth and discernment. Usually, the awareness is first experienced during samatha, when the mind is calm and concentrated. But it is necessary to let this grow into more difficult states and situations, too, to tame the mind, to conquer. If one cannot keep awareness and practice the four foundations of mindfulness during an orgasm it means that awareness (sampajanna) is not stable during wake, yet. More practice in this regard is required. What I want to say is that I would not call anyone an arahat who cannot stay aware and knowing just because body and mind are in a state of orgasm. Or just because there is a baby that needs to be attended to and there is nobody else. How should that be Liberation? But as the suttas state that arahats are celibates the term "celibate" cannot possibly refer to it's every-day biological meaning.Guy wrote:So are you saying that celibacy is motivated by an avoidance of responsibility?As to the "celibacy" in the biological/social sense I don't think this is essential, just convenient if one does not want the possible social responsibilities.
We have had a discussion regarding this topic: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=3479" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;I understand celibacy to be supportive of entering Jhanas (since the mind of a person who is celibate in body, speech and mind is not inclined towards sensual desire/the first hindrance) and to the development of wisdom, ultimately leading to Nibbana.
They don't cling, but there are still body and mind processes. Like described here http://what-buddha-said.net/drops/II/Bo ... eeling.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;This is why it is impossible for Arahants and Anagamis to even think a thought motivated by lust, let alone commit a sexual act since they have irreversibly removed the hindrance of sensual desire.
They are not robots, you know.
Just stumbled on this sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
As you can see the five clinging-aggregates are still there for an arahant. An arahant just does not cling to them.
If you want we can discuss this on a more fitting board....but now I've gone quite off topic...
It is my observation that people (including me) interpret the Suttas and the Vinaya in the context of their present development. How could it be otherwise?Bringing this back to the original topic...is it possible that we "conveniently" interpret the Suttas and the Vinaya in such a way that suits our pursuit of sensuality in an attempt to have the "best of both worlds"?
Re: What is holding you back from ordaining?
I can't see how you draw that conclusion.Freawaru wrote: How should that be Liberation? But as the suttas state that arahats are celibates the term "celibate" cannot possibly refer to it's every-day biological meaning.
Four types of letting go:
1) Giving; expecting nothing back in return
2) Throwing things away
3) Contentment; wanting to be here, not wanting to be anywhere else
4) "Teflon Mind"; having a mind which doesn't accumulate things
- Ajahn Brahm
1) Giving; expecting nothing back in return
2) Throwing things away
3) Contentment; wanting to be here, not wanting to be anywhere else
4) "Teflon Mind"; having a mind which doesn't accumulate things
- Ajahn Brahm
Re: What is holding you back from ordaining?
If a patient declined to take a certain course of treatment, would they be in a credible position to argue about it's efficiency as a medicine?
metta
Jack
metta
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks