The value of nibbana

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nschauer
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Re: The value of nibbana

Post by nschauer » Fri Mar 05, 2010 2:53 am

What are the twelve links of DO? Are you referring to dependent origination? As far as rebirth is concerned - I don't hold to that view - this is all here now and any rebirth is from breath to breath until the breath ceases.

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ground
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Re: The value of nibbana

Post by ground » Fri Mar 05, 2010 4:46 am

nschauer wrote:What are the twelve links of DO? Are you referring to dependent origination? As far as rebirth is concerned - I don't hold to that view - this is all here now and any rebirth is from breath to breath until the breath ceases.
Our speaking about "here now" indicates our imprisonment in time and space, indicates our being "born".
To be clear: This understanding of yours is intended to be covered by my post, too ("Therefore each activity of one having been born necessarily results in further birth."). IMO actually it makes no difference how you interprete the term "birth". You necessarily are within the sphere of the 12 links if activity is deliberately initiated or if there is a goal which is in contrast to "what is". Therefore there is no way out through activity having its origin in the sphere of the 12 links. Any intended activity (or effort or activity directed towards a goal) will necessarily fail (meaning "not reach beyond the sphere of the 12 links") according to the model of the 12 links of DO itself. This is my understanding of the dialectical import of the 12 links of DO. One may therefore conclude that this model of DO is not intended to have dialectical import but is intended to have mere "psychological" import effecting the general mental "setting" (attitude) of the individuum. So the model may be understood to be a metaphor.
But then - returning to the topic - the same may be said about the meaning (or "value") of the term "nirvana" which dialectically implies an opposition to this 12 links model.

nschauer
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Re: The value of nibbana

Post by nschauer » Sun Mar 07, 2010 5:45 am

I think then we agree - the 12 steps of dependent origination - or simply the first noble truth puts to rest the idea that nibbana should be sought. If craving is suffering then craving for nibbana will lead to suffering. Self is not destroyed - but craving is. This puts an end to the DO and nibbana is attained. One can hardly speak about reaching nibbana without using language which is contrary to nibbana. I find this hardest of all - most of what the experience of following the path is outside the reaches of language - at least for me.
I agree that the interpretation of rebirth is unimportant - to awaken to this life now - fully and without views or craving - this is the end of rebirth.

thanks

nschauer
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Re: The value of nibbana

Post by nschauer » Sun Mar 07, 2010 5:45 am

I think then we agree - the 12 steps of dependent origination - or simply the first noble truth puts to rest the idea that nibbana should be sought. If craving is suffering then craving for nibbana will lead to suffering. Self is not destroyed - but craving is. This puts an end to the DO and nibbana is attained. One can hardly speak about reaching nibbana without using language which is contrary to nibbana. I find this hardest of all - most of what the experience of following the path is outside the reaches of language - at least for me.
I agree that the interpretation of rebirth is unimportant - to awaken to this life now - fully and without views or craving - this is the end of rebirth.

thanks

nschauer
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:53 pm

Re: The value of nibbana

Post by nschauer » Sun Mar 07, 2010 5:45 am

I think then we agree - the 12 steps of dependent origination - or simply the first noble truth puts to rest the idea that nibbana should be sought. If craving is suffering then craving for nibbana will lead to suffering. Self is not destroyed - but craving is. This puts an end to the DO and nibbana is attained. One can hardly speak about reaching nibbana without using language which is contrary to nibbana. I find this hardest of all - most of what the experience of following the path is outside the reaches of language - at least for me.
I agree that the interpretation of rebirth is unimportant - to awaken to this life now - fully and without views or craving - this is the end of rebirth.

thanks

meindzai
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Re: The value of nibbana

Post by meindzai » Sun Mar 07, 2010 5:15 pm

nschauer wrote:I think then we agree - the 12 steps of dependent origination - or simply the first noble truth puts to rest the idea that nibbana should be sought. If craving is suffering then craving for nibbana will lead to suffering. Self is not destroyed - but craving is. This puts an end to the DO and nibbana is attained. One can hardly speak about reaching nibbana without using language which is contrary to nibbana. I find this hardest of all - most of what the experience of following the path is outside the reaches of language - at least for me.
You're dealing with two different things that might be classified as "craving" here. The craving that leads to dukkha is craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming, and sensual craving. But you can still have a desire for awakening - dhamma-chanda, that is absolutely a requirement for awakening. Don't take my word for it - Ananda has this same discussion with the Brahman Unnabha in the Brahmana Sutta
"If that's so, Master Ananda, then it's an endless path, and not one with an end, for it's impossible that one could abandon desire by means of desire."

"In that case, brahman, let me question you on this matter. Answer as you see fit. What do you think: Didn't you first have desire, thinking, 'I'll go to the park,' and then when you reached the park, wasn't that particular desire allayed?"

"Yes, sir."

"Didn't you first have persistence, thinking, 'I'll go to the park,' and then when you reached the park, wasn't that particular persistence allayed?"

"Yes, sir."

"Didn't you first have the intent, thinking, 'I'll go to the park,' and then when you reached the park, wasn't that particular intent allayed?"

"Yes, sir."

"Didn't you first have [an act of] discrimination, thinking, 'I'll go to the park,' and then when you reached the park, wasn't that particular act of discrimination allayed?"

"Yes, sir."

"So it is with an arahant whose mental effluents are ended, who has reached fulfillment, done the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, totally destroyed the fetter of becoming, and who is released through right gnosis. Whatever desire he first had for the attainment of arahantship, on attaining arahantship that particular desire is allayed. Whatever persistence he first had for the attainment of arahantship, on attaining arahantship that particular persistence is allayed. Whatever intent he first had for the attainment of arahantship, on attaining arahantship that particular intent is allayed. Whatever discrimination he first had for the attainment of arahantship, on attaining arahantship that particular discrimination is allayed. So what do you think, brahman? Is this an endless path, or one with an end?"

"You're right, Master Ananda. This is a path with an end, and not an endless one. Magnificent, Master Ananda! Magnificent! Just as if he were to place upright what was overturned, to reveal what was hidden, to show the way to one who was lost, or to carry a lamp into the dark so that those with eyes could see forms, in the same way has Master Ananda — through many lines of reasoning — made the Dhamma clear. I go to Master Gotama for refuge, to the Dhamma, and to the Sangha of monks. May Master Ananda remember me as a lay follower who has gone for refuge, from this day forward, for life."
-M

nschauer
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Re: The value of nibbana

Post by nschauer » Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:56 am

I hope i don't post this one three times - duh - talk about rebirth. I would agree that intent is different from craving. Intention like discernment can be maintained without craving. So I would agree that intention to reach nibbana is not craving. I am not sure what your point is - You are born? My birth doesn't prove I was reborn unless you are speaking about it metaphorically. I'm not sure what you are getting at. Clarify for me please.

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ground
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Re: The value of nibbana

Post by ground » Thu Mar 11, 2010 7:23 am

nschauer wrote:I would agree that intent is different from craving. Intention like discernment can be maintained without craving.
Intent is no different from sankhara, the 2nd limb. The result is birth. Dead end. Koan.

Kind regards

Mukunda
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Re: The value of nibbana

Post by Mukunda » Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:11 pm

Nibbana isn't the destruction of anything. It is the extinguishing of suffering.

I fail to see the point of practice if one doesn't accept the doctrine of literal rebirth. It's much easier to alleviate suffering through drugs and alcohol if this one life is all I have to worry about.

char101
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Re: The value of nibbana

Post by char101 » Sat Mar 20, 2010 1:59 pm

acinteyyo wrote:I don't want to be offensive. It is absolutely not my intention to be offensive, but this kind of "rough" tone is the only way how I think I might help you with this. Your assumptions are simply absolutely wrong. Because they are all together based on attavada (belief in a self). Can't you see that you're all the time identifying yourself with things (dhamma) which shall not considerd as self? You don't really use the word "self" but it is obvious that you mean it.
Hi acinteyyo,

I do not think your words is offensive. I cannot argue about whether I wrote that based on atta or not because I do not fully understand anatta and when I do try to understand it, there are different views on what is the meaning of anatta. So I'll leave it as it is and 'detach' myself from it :D . Anyway isn't it paradoxical hoping for me talking (writing) free from the view of atta since I am an ordinary being not released from the view of atta itself? We can talk anatta as a doctrine but my main topic is how is it that this being (myself) which is still attached to atta can gain enough motivation to practice to attain nibbana. From psychological point of view, people don't pursue things that they don't value. And as a being which is still attached to atta, I can say that atta is one if not the most valued thing by a living being.

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cooran
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Re: The value of nibbana

Post by cooran » Sat Mar 20, 2010 10:28 pm

char101 wrote:
acinteyyo wrote:I don't want to be offensive. It is absolutely not my intention to be offensive, but this kind of "rough" tone is the only way how I think I might help you with this. Your assumptions are simply absolutely wrong. Because they are all together based on attavada (belief in a self). Can't you see that you're all the time identifying yourself with things (dhamma) which shall not considerd as self? You don't really use the word "self" but it is obvious that you mean it.
Hi acinteyyo,

I do not think your words is offensive. I cannot argue about whether I wrote that based on atta or not because I do not fully understand anatta and when I do try to understand it, there are different views on what is the meaning of anatta. So I'll leave it as it is and 'detach' myself from it :D . Anyway isn't it paradoxical hoping for me talking (writing) free from the view of atta since I am an ordinary being not released from the view of atta itself? We can talk anatta as a doctrine but my main topic is how is it that this being (myself) which is still attached to atta can gain enough motivation to practice to attain nibbana. From psychological point of view, people don't pursue things that they don't value. And as a being which is still attached to atta, I can say that atta is one if not the most valued thing by a living being.
Hello char101,

You may find this information of assistance in understanding Anatta. (maybe scary too).

No Inner Core - Anatta by Sayadaw U Silananda
http://www.mahindarama.com/e-library/anatta1.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
THE DOCTRINE OF NO-SOUL: ANATTA
http://quangduc.com/English/basic/68wha ... ht-06.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Buddha's Teachings on Selflessness (with extracts from the Samyutta Nikaya)
- Nyanatiloka Mahathera
http://www.bps.lk/other_library/buddhas ... sness.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

ashkenn
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Re: The value of nibbana

Post by ashkenn » Sun Mar 21, 2010 2:30 pm

((nschauer wrote:
I would agree that intent is different from craving. Intention like discernment can be maintained without craving.
Intent is no different from sankhara, the 2nd limb. The result is birth. Dead end. Koan.))


KO: Usually the word is chanda rather than intention, it is translated as purpose, interest or zeal. Then chanda could be wholesome if arise with wisdom and unwholesome if it arise with cravings. So when you want to learn dhamma, it is chanda arise with faith or wisdom to learn it. If you like a pleasant object, it is chanda that arise with craving which is unwholesome. Also sankhara does not mean unwholesome because wisdom is also sankhara, sankhara has different meanings. Sankhara dhammas means conditon dhammas.

Honestly, not self is not easy to understand. A simple example which you could use to help you to understand is
Whenever you hear a sound and you notice it, is the sound arise because you ask it to arise, or it is because of a sound conscoiousness that arise to hear the sound. There is no self at all in the hearing. You cannot stop hearing, if you could block it by putting a sound proof cover but after you take it out, you will continue to hear. It arises because of conditions. You could use this for seeing, tasting, touching, smelling and thinking


Cheers
Ken O

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