The Mainstream or The Outsider?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Pulsar
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Re: The Mainstream or The Outsider?

Post by Pulsar »

Binocular wrote
"mikenz66 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 04, 2020 5:39 am
I was intrigued by a description of a certain teacher as:
... framing his argument as that of an insightful truth-teller, an outsider able to shed the delusions that have transfixed the mainstream.
This happened to be Bhikkhu Sujato commenting on Thanissaro Bhikkhu's view on not self, but I'm interested not in the particular argument, but in the wider implications of the statement
Apologise for the interruption..."Sujato's comment on Thanissaro's view of not self" caught my attention. Can you pl, give me a link to this?
I've listened to most of what Sujato had to say in his videos, in the last few days.
Needless to say I am blown away, and I also find a similarity in their ways of thinking regarding jhana, which I admire, which is true to the canon.
Be well! :candle:

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Nicolas
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Re: The Mainstream or The Outsider?

Post by Nicolas »

Pulsar wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:26 pm
"Sujato's comment on Thanissaro's view of not self" caught my attention. Can you pl, give me a link to this?
This could be it: On not-self, existence, and ontological strategies by Ven. Sujato

Pulsar
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Re: The Mainstream or The Outsider?

Post by Pulsar »

Thank you very much dear Nicolas.
I read the article, it gave me a headache. I do not like the cocktail of metaphysics,
ontology etc. For the soteriological purpose, it is not necessary. Only Samma sati and Samma samadhi are
necessary. Never having studied philosophy
in college, I do not easily get the meaning of these words.
Perhaps Sujato was a bit bored, when he wrote this. Everyone gets bored and want to pick a word battle
with a friend.
Once I understood what Buddha meant by saying "there is no self" it did not matter
to me whether it was "no-self" or "not-self". Language never corresponds to the real
meaning ..."Language and Reality" by Jojannes Bronkhorst... is a worthwhile read.
Ajhan Brahmali commented in that post
Yes, I too have found this distinction odd.
Ven. Thanissaro is right, of course, that the teaching on non-self is used as a strategy in the suttas. For instance, the Buddha teaches the development of the anattāsaññā (the perception of non-self) and dukkhe anattāsaññā (the perception of non-self in what is suffering). These might be called strategies that lead you onward on the path
...just talking aloud to myself.
You are very kind Nicolas. :candle:

binocular
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Re: The Mainstream or The Outsider?

Post by binocular »

mikenz66 wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:25 pm
OK, thanks for the explanation. I'm not sure it fits so well in this case.
It's not about "fitting", it's about what the speaker wants to convey with their choice of metaphorical imagery.
The center-periphery-outside imagery implies something static; people being in their positions, knowing their place; and there being such things as "places" to begin with, and an "inside" and an "outside".

In contrast:

Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 8:57 pm
The Buddha's preferred imagery was that these were the ones closest to supreme safety. They are not "exploratory", but the quickest ones in following the trail blazed by the pioneer.
In other words, the imagery of a linear, progressive movement toward a goal, with some people being closer to that goal than others.

In the center-periphery-outside imagery, people aren't going anywhere, they hold their positions respective to the center.
Following a trail blazed by the pioneer implies movement. Hence the notions of there being a path and walking the path.

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Sam Vara
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Re: The Mainstream or The Outsider?

Post by Sam Vara »

binocular wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 10:50 am

In other words, the imagery of a linear, progressive movement toward a goal, with some people being closer to that goal than others.

In the center-periphery-outside imagery, people aren't going anywhere, they hold their positions respective to the center.
Following a trail blazed by the pioneer implies movement. Hence the notions of there being a path and walking the path.
Good point, but I don't think centre and periphery necessarily imply stasis or not going anywhere. Sperm and ovum, for example, or penguins pushing into the warmth of the flock.

Ultimately, it's just a metaphor, and we might be content with it being illuminating in one way without it being apposite in other respects. The linear progressive image would not have been right for Sujato here, as it would have implied that Thanissaro is less advanced regarding progress on the path.

binocular
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Re: The Mainstream or The Outsider?

Post by binocular »

Sam Vara wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 11:30 am
Good point, but I don't think centre and periphery necessarily imply stasis or not going anywhere. Sperm and ovum, for example, or penguins pushing into the warmth of the flock.
This time, I'll pass on another reading & applying of Goffman's theory of stigma ...
Ultimately, it's just a metaphor, and we might be content with it being illuminating in one way without it being apposite in other respects. The linear progressive image would not have been right for Sujato here, as it would have implied that Thanissaro is less advanced regarding progress on the path.
Unless ...!
Ven. Thanissaro said that there are Buddhists who consider him rather not advanced. :tongue:

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Sam Vara
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Re: The Mainstream or The Outsider?

Post by Sam Vara »

binocular wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 1:32 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 11:30 am
Good point, but I don't think centre and periphery necessarily imply stasis or not going anywhere. Sperm and ovum, for example, or penguins pushing into the warmth of the flock.
This time, I'll pass on another reading & applying of Goffman's theory of stigma ...
Ultimately, it's just a metaphor, and we might be content with it being illuminating in one way without it being apposite in other respects. The linear progressive image would not have been right for Sujato here, as it would have implied that Thanissaro is less advanced regarding progress on the path.
Unless ...!
Ven. Thanissaro said that there are Buddhists who consider him rather not advanced. :tongue:
:jumping: Yes, and quite a few of them on here!

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