What needs to be done so that Theravada is never called Hinayana

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Spiny Norman
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Re: What needs to be done so that Theravada is never called Hinayana

Post by Spiny Norman »

Is "Hinayanaphobia" a problem then? :jumping:
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Dhammanando
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Re: What needs to be done so that Theravada is never called Hinayana

Post by Dhammanando »

Germann wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:22 pm
For decades, Theravadins have been upset about the name “Hinayana,” for decades, articles and threads have been raised about this, and “Hinayana” is always offensive.
Some Theravadins get upset by the term. Others (the wiser ones, in my view) simply follow the Akkosa Sutta and decline the Mahayanists' gift:
“Brahmin, one who abuses his own abuser [...] he is said to partake of the meal, to enter upon an exchange. But we do not partake of your meal; we do not enter upon an exchange. It still belongs to you, brahmin! It still belongs to you, brahmin!”
Germann wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:22 pm
What prevents those who suffer from the situation from changing it?
Perhaps it hasn't yet occurred to them that they'd be better off following Shantideva's advice and covering the soles of their feet with leather rather than trying to cover the whole surface of the earth.
Germann wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:29 pm
When it becomes clear that Theravada and Mahayana are different religions, each of which cannot consider the other as the Teaching of the Buddha, it will be possible to calmly cooperate with each other.
I already do. For me it's been clear for decades that whereas mainstream Indian Buddhism (the Buddhism of the "eighteen" Schools) is one religion divided into competing traditions of interpretation, the Mahayana is something else altogether.
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If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
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Kim OHara
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Re: What needs to be done so that Theravada is never called Hinayana

Post by Kim OHara »

Dhammanando wrote:
Fri Mar 13, 2020 2:08 am
Germann wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:22 pm
For decades, Theravadins have been upset about the name “Hinayana,” for decades, articles and threads have been raised about this, and “Hinayana” is always offensive.
Some Theravadins get upset by the term. Others (the wiser ones, in my view) simply follow the Akkosa Sutta and decline the Mahayanists' gift:
“Brahmin, one who abuses his own abuser [...] he is said to partake of the meal, to enter upon an exchange. But we do not partake of your meal; we do not enter upon an exchange. It still belongs to you, brahmin! It still belongs to you, brahmin!”
Germann wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:22 pm
What prevents those who suffer from the situation from changing it?
Perhaps it hasn't yet occurred to them that they'd be better off following Shantideva's advice and covering the soles of their feet with leather rather than trying to cover the whole surface of the earth.
:goodpost:
Germann wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:29 pm
When it becomes clear that Theravada and Mahayana are different religions, each of which cannot consider the other as the Teaching of the Buddha, it will be possible to calmly cooperate with each other.
I already do. For me it's been clear for decades that whereas mainstream Indian Buddhism (the Buddhism of the "eighteen" Schools) is one religion divided into competing traditions of interpretation, the Mahayana is something else altogether.
I can see and respect your reasons for this view, ven. Dhammanando, but I can't quite share it. For myself, it it a matter of how far the traditions have to diverge before we choose to call them "something else altogether" or "different religions", which in turn is a matter of our intentions and purposes rather than objective reality.

:namaste:
Kim

Caodemarte
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Re: What needs to be done so that Theravada is never called Hinayana

Post by Caodemarte »

The standard Mahayana view (especially in East Asian Buddhism) is that "Hinayana," the 18-21 extinct schools (none of which is Theravada) or the less pejorative term "the Hearers" do indeed follow the teachings of the Buddha as does the Mahayana. These teachings are not contradictory, but do offer different perspectives as with the old story of the blind describing an elephant. Different medicines are given for different diseases. Doctors and patients may disagree about the right medicine at any one time for different diseases, but the intention is to cure the patient.

sentinel
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Re: What needs to be done so that Theravada is never called Hinayana

Post by sentinel »

Define Theravada first . Whom decide what Theravada supposed to be . Do you regard Dhammakaya sect or movement as Theravada ? Or Mahayana ? Or none of both ? Theravada monks such as Ajahn Mun , Sumedho , Mahaboowa etc and many many more , do you regard them as Theravada monk ? If in so called Theravada countries where so called Theravada monks held Mahayana views , do you still take them as Theravadins ?
Hmmm , there were many Mahayanist whom held Theravada views , do you take them as Mahayanist ?
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: What needs to be done so that Theravada is never called Hinayana

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

.



Maybe just maybe:

WHEN theravadan monks started singing and hip-hopping and playing guitar like these Mahayanan monks & nuns in the following videos, AND IF they were automagically well cherished and seemlessly accepted by harmoniously resonated audience of the similar Dhamma maturity, THEN Manayanans would consider not using the the term Hinayana, ever.

Maybe just maybe.

:lol:



Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 12:46 pm
.


:cry: :cry: :cry:



Hip hop monk / nuns








Guitar Monk







:cry: :cry: :cry:


..
:heart:
.


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sentinel
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Re: What needs to be done so that Theravada is never called Hinayana

Post by sentinel »

:jumping:

Haha , hip hop & guitar monks appear not really mahayana monks . Just like Thai magic tattoo monk in the video undoubtedly taken as Theravadan monk !







Maybe just maybe .

:tongue:
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: What needs to be done so that Theravada is never called Hinayana

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

sentinel wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 3:00 pm
:jumping:

Haha , hip hop & guitar monks appear not really mahayana monks .
...

:tongue:


Aha, ok, let me put it this way:

Only when hinayana monks were officially and socially allowed to get married and procreate like their mahayana counterparts, ...

Maybe just may be.



Straight from wikipedia summary on google search results for the question -- "Can Buddhist monks be married? ":
Monastics in Japan are particularly exceptional in the Buddhist tradition because the monks and nuns can marry after receiving their higher ordination. ... Some Korean monks live with wives in their monasteries. Monks of certain Chinese Buddhist sects are allowed to marry, such as in historical Yunnan, Lingnan and Taiwan.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org › wiki
Buddhist monasticism - Wikipedia
No true Scotsman method can no longer be applied here as a quick remedy, imo. :jumping:


Oh those, revolutionary Mahayanans 8-)
.


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sentinel
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Re: What needs to be done so that Theravada is never called Hinayana

Post by sentinel »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 4:08 pm

Only when hinayana monks were officially and socially allowed to get married and procreate like their mahayana counterparts, ...

Dear oh dear ,

There aint any hinayana monk .
Unless , one admitted to it .

:rofl:
“The foot feels the foot when it feels the ground.”

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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: What needs to be done so that Theravada is never called Hinayana

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

sentinel wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 4:18 pm

...
There aint any hinayana monk .
...


:goodpost:

Sadhu, Sadhu, Sadhu!
Thanks a lot for that.
Let me take it as Right Speech. :twothumbsup:

:bow: :bow: :bow:
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dharmacorps
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Re: What needs to be done so that Theravada is never called Hinayana

Post by dharmacorps »

This is all in how you handle it I think. I have a neighbor who is a very devout Hindu (he was a Hindu priest), and on finding out I am a Buddhist, declared his happiness because Buddha is an representation of Vishnu, therefore we both follow the same religion (meaning, Hinduism). I don't agree, but we do share many aspects of how we follow our paths-- restraint from alcohol, harming, etc. There may come a time when I need to tell him I disagree with his interpretation, but for now, there is more benefit in friendliness and commaraderie in practice with him then engaging in a debate about the Buddha and Hinduism. I view it the same as Mahayana people who hold ideas I disagree with on Theravada. You have to pick your battles.

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Coëmgenu
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Re: What needs to be done so that Theravada is never called Hinayana

Post by Coëmgenu »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 4:08 pm
No true Scotsman method can no longer be applied here as a quick remedy, imo. :jumping:
Dismiss this as a no true Scotsman if you want, I'm not the boss of you, but that Wikipedia article is not making the vital distinction between a monk and a priest, and referring to them as "monastics," which is not accurate. For instance, these priests don't live in Buddhist monasteries, don't follow vinaya, have no vinaya-based ordination, and often live in houses attached to temple grounds (with their families). They aren't monks or monastics. Japan does have monks who observe the Dharmaguptaka vinaya and are celibate, don't eat after noon, don't sleep on high beds, etc., but they are in an incredible minority.

Before World War II, the fascist Japanese government-theocracy banned vinaya observation as an attempt to destroy "foreign religions" in Japan and strengthen the newly created "State Shintō." This dealt a horrible blow to Japanese Buddhism from which it never really recovered.

THE MORE YOU KNOW!
savi saghara aṇica di, savi saghara dukha di, savi dhama aṇatva di: yada paśadi cakhkṣuma tada nivinadi dukha eṣo mago viśodhia. ||| "All formations are inconstant," he said. "All formations are stressful," he said. "All phenomena are selfless," he said. When one sees this, one becomes adverse to stress, and this is the path of purity. ||| (Gāndhārī Dharmapada fragments)

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Re: What needs to be done so that Theravada is never called Hinayana

Post by santa100 »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote:Aha, ok, let me put it this way:

Only when hinayana monks were officially and socially allowed to get married and procreate like their mahayana counterparts, ...

Maybe just may be.
Oh yeah, you bet those Mahayana dudes reach "Nirvana" every night together with their wives, or spiritual partners, or whatever the heck they call them. It's just not the same Nibbana that the Buddha taught about in those "Hinayana" suttas. Maybe that's why they call others Hinayana afterall, you know, our vehicle's supposed to be big enough to carry not only oneself, but also one's karaoke, one's guitar, and... one's many wives!

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Coëmgenu
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Re: What needs to be done so that Theravada is never called Hinayana

Post by Coëmgenu »

Most of these priests follow Amidism, and don't believe nibbāna is attainable anymore, and strive for birth in Sukhavāti, or they are Zen priests and believe everyone and everything is already enlightened, you've just got to "tune in." Sexual Tantra is rare in Japan, with only a subsect of Shingon practicing it.

Believe it or not, there are also real monastics in Japan in addition to these varieties of priests.

THE MORE YOU KNOW!
savi saghara aṇica di, savi saghara dukha di, savi dhama aṇatva di: yada paśadi cakhkṣuma tada nivinadi dukha eṣo mago viśodhia. ||| "All formations are inconstant," he said. "All formations are stressful," he said. "All phenomena are selfless," he said. When one sees this, one becomes adverse to stress, and this is the path of purity. ||| (Gāndhārī Dharmapada fragments)

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markandeya
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Re: What needs to be done so that Theravada is never called Hinayana

Post by markandeya »

Caodemarte wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:25 pm
It tends to already be disappearing from modern works. "Hinayana" was originally applied to 18 to 21 schools in ancient Indian polemics as an insult. Theravada did not exist at the time as a distinct school. It developed later as a separate school well to the south of the area where Mahayana developed. They were not historical competitors. Later on, "Hinayana" was used to refer to a specific attitude amongst practitioners of all sects, not for a particular sect. Early Western Buddhologists assumed that Theravada and the 18-21 schools were the same thing and used "Hinayana" as another name for Theravada. This was later fed back into Mahayana Buddhist countries and into the colonial era South Asian revival of Buddhism.

Nowadays few scholars refer to Theravada as Hinayana, and this usage seems to be disappearing with greater contact between the various branches of Buddhism.
I am not sure where you have gotten that Hinayana in ancient india was applied as an insult

Hinayana is the warriors path for those with strong resilience to apply the teachings and liberate the mind from self view

Hinayana gradual or southern practice is the initial practice where one works on kleshas within there own mind and fearlessly applies the teachings in the jungle of the mind to root out greed hatred and delusion

So how could they have insulted such a great person who actually applies the teachings I would say they mock intellectual understanding because it misleads people creates sects divisions and dogma

Mahayana which is just a word that implies that one who has developed hinyana self liberating practices automatically evolves into practices of no self and includes more people in practice than just themselves, this is the northern sudden automatic awakening

No matter what tradition which all have these two systems included will have gradual self liberating practices and sudden greater awakenings

I would go more into detail on this but it usually leads to your not welcome here your a drug addict and other kind gestures and mental bullying from the real buddhists that insists on dogma and sectarian translations 😊

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