Jhana

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
Pulsar
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Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Dinsdale wrote
Just a general question on jhana: I've read several commentaries on the four tetras of anapanasati which suggest the first three tetrads are for developing jhana.
Is this basically correct?
you ask very good questions, but this time I am stumped. MN 118 is a sutta I stay away from, kind of, because
people interpret it in various ways. My first understanding is, it is an elaboration of the Satipathana bhavana. Pl note I say S. bhavana and not establishing mindfulness merely. Unlike many other Theravadins I have come to understand the Satipatthana bhavana as a different approach to cessation. Cessation meaning the state of mind where one is not conceiving anymore. Sometimes it is called emptiness, or the void.
So to answer your question, (I just read the sutta, to jog my memory). I think one can safely say the four tetrads also relate to the four jhanas.
They are all trying to accomplish the same thing.
What disturbs me about this sutta is, that some think focussing on the breath is the "be all and end all" of the
sutta. It is definitely not, based on my understanding.
Breath is brought in, as an aspect of vitaka, vicara of the first jhana.
It might be the influence of Upanishads that some describe breath as almost "a Pranayama practice", i.e. control of breath, or as an object to begin with.
All these meditations (samma sati, same samadhi) are objectless meditations. If one's consciousness is trapped in breath, or an object, how can one release the mind/consciousness? The whole point of practice is the release of the mind/consciousness, the release of "I", it is only then
that one does not conceive.
You have asked a couple of questions in other threads, in the past, that helped me a whole lot. So thank you dear stargazer! for your curious mind :candle:

auto
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Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by auto »

Pulsar wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:54 pm
Breath is brought in, as an aspect of vitaka, vicara of the first jhana.
It might be the influence of Upanishads that some describe breath as almost "a Pranayama practice", i.e. control of breath, or as an object to begin with.
bashing Hindus using Hindus?
Pulsar wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:54 pm
All these meditations (samma sati, same samadhi) are objectless meditations.
minus self, since you don' t understand it,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvikalpa wrote: विकल्प vikalpa ("alternative, variant thought or conception").
निः ni ("away, without, not")

Nirvikalpa (Sanskrit : निर्विकल्प) is a Sanskrit adjective with the general sense of "not wavering," "admitting no doubt," "free from change or differences."[1] In the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali it refers to meditation without an object.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvikalpa wrote:Samprajnata Samadhi, also called savikalpa samadhi and Sabija Samadhi[web 3] ("samadhi with seed),[5][note 1] meditation with support of an object.
..
Asamprajnata Samadhi, also called Nirvikalpa Samadhi[web 1] and Nirbija Samadhi[web 1] ("samadhi without seed),[5]:[note 9] meditation without an object,[web 2] which leads to knowledge of purusha or consciousness, the subtlest element.
..
Pulsar wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:54 pm
If one's consciousness is trapped in breath, or an object, how can one release the mind/consciousness? The whole point of practice is the release of the mind/consciousness, the release of "I", it is only then
that one does not conceive.
Can you be more careful(elaborate) what exactly you don't agree with when it comes to Budhism and Hinduism?

Pulsar
Posts: 743
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Auto wrote
bashing hindus using hindus 
why not? it is fair game. You guys have tried to demote and demean us, over 2500 years, even as Buddha lived, and later, infused our canon with things untrue.
Pl. don't get me started, I can get furious and equanimous at the same time.
Hindus, good at duping the buddhist might I say? Hindu here, I assume all those sects that in modern day man uses to imply writings ranging from Rigveda, Brhadaranyaka, and a hundred different Upanishads.
I am not an idiot dear Auto, and neither am I bashful to say it as I see it.
Since you appear to be an erudite scholar on these matters, I am sure you have read
Nama-rupa: Origin and aspects of an ancient Indian conception
by Maryla Falk.
The book is worth its weight in gold, or more.
Now I see Hinduism through and through, thanks to Maryla.
Hinduism originated from Myth, god infused, and finally borrowed everything possible from Buddhism to make it authentic
Auto, then you wanna know what I found out last night?
Kashmir Shaivism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashmir_Shaivism
No one else could have packaged this stuff more brilliantly, than a Hindu.
Excerpts
Kashmir Shaivism or more accurately Trika Shaivism refers to a nondualist tradition of Śaiva-Śakta Tantra which originated sometime after 850 CE
Non-dual a nice phrase directly imported from Mahayana.
Excerpt
Dating from around 850–900 CE, the Shiva Sutrasand Spandakārikā were the first attempt from the Śākta Śaiva domain to present a non-dualistic metaphysics and gnostic soteriology in opposition to the dualistic exegesis of the Shaiva Siddhanta.The Shiva Sutras appeared to Vasugupta in a dream, according to tradition
Nice I went to bed last night and dreamt up a ton of suttas, nothing to do with Buddha.
more excerpt
In the 20th century Swami Lakshman Joo, a Kashmiri Brahmin, helped revive both the scholarly and yogic streams of Kashmir Shaivism.[15] His contribution is enormous. He inspired a generation of scholars who made Kashmir Shaivism a legitimate field of inquiry within the academy. Acharya Rameshwar Jha, a disciple of Lakshman Joo, is often credited with establishing the roots of Kashmir Shaivism in the learned community of Varanasi. Rameshwar Jha with his creativity, familiarity with the ancient texts and personal experiences provided access to concepts of non-dualistic Kashmir Shaivism
Here below another excerpt.
I see this, nothing other than daylight robbery of Satipatthana sutta.
To attain moksha, sādhana or spiritual practice is necessary. Kashmir Shaivism describes four major methods
  • āṇavopāya, the method of the body
  • śāktopāya, the method of the mind
  • śāmbhavopāya, the method of Consciousness
  • anupāya the ‘methodless’ method
But none should be surprised at the above. World is built on duplicity.
With love :candle:

PS later, however, it crosses my mind
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery

auto
Posts: 1553
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by auto »

Pulsar wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:12 am
..
..im little bit skimming the beginning of this book you mentioned, right now.

"Nama-Rupa and Dharma-Rupa: Origins and Aspects of an Ancient Indian Conception"
By Maryla Falk
in common self-conscious existence the potential all-consciousness lies asleep in the depths of human being, but it may be awakened in yoga - The place where both "purusas" unite is the heart; they have a path in common: it is the vein susumna leading upwards from the heart to the top of the skull. When their union takes place, self-consciousness disappears- there is no longer any distinction between the outer and the inner world..
this information.. is decent. (typed it from the book, typos and possible other mistakes are mine)
in the Upanishads we are faced with the parallel microcosmic formulation of the ancient mythical
consception: the motif of the Purusa's dismemberment at the dawn of the cosmic becoming reappears in these text
as the differentiation of the atman(the latter term being adopted since the Atharvanic stage as the chief
designation of the psycho-cosmic Purusa) into the vital functions or pranas. In this condition, that is to say
in the common conscious existence of man, the atman cannot be realized becase he is non-total(asarva), reality
being differntiated(vyakriate) in names-and-forms(BAU I, 4, 7).
But in a particular state of "knowledge", in the ecstatic unification of man's being in which the pranas become steady
and melt into one(in the later texts this state is called samadhi; similar wordings are already met with in the oldest
Upandishadic texts: cf. samastah samprasannah ChU VIII, 6, 3, hence samprasada = atman ibid. 3, 4 and 12,3;
the psychic exercise by which this unification is enacted in the waking condition - namely the discipline of yoga -
is already practised since at least the Atharvanic period(as I have repeatedly pointed out), and is known in the AV.
under the verbal forms of the later technical term), the reconstituted atman, having left the bodily differentiated existence
and reached the supernal Light(the highest sphere of the transcendent brahman), comes forth in his own Form(svena rupenabhinispadyate),
viz., the one-and-total rupa of the universal supreme Purusa(sa uttamah purusah) (ChU VIII, 12,3).
So his supersensuous reality is hidden in the pranas which are his "functional names"(tasyaitani karmanamani BAU I, 4, 7): his true name is atman.
Therefore one must not realize him under those single aspects in mediation producing identity with the object(upas-upasana), for in this way
one does not "know": one must indeed realize him as atman ":" there all the(pranas) become one".
Knowledge of names is in fact knowledge of things, for according to the ancient Indian conception names are nowise fortuitous
desiginations, but are expressive of the innermost essence and power of the things named. We already met with the notion that the real names
are hidden, and only the seer discovers them. As "knowledge" is identification with the thing known, the more one "knows",
the greater one becomes; by "knowing the all", or, in the terms of this conception, by effectuating the redintegration of all names
in the unique and universal name, Vac, one "becomes the All", becomes identified with the universal Purusa.
This state of universal knowledge(styled pratibodha in the Upanishads[BAU I, 4 Kena 12], bodhi or sambodhi in Buddhism) takes place
in the ecstatic vision, the Upanishadic description of which(BAU II, 3, 6, cf. V, 7;Kena 10-12;29:ChU VIII, 4, 2;Katha VI, 2;etc.) - as
lightning instant of illumination whereby immortality is attained in brahman thorugh extension to universal existence - had already
been anticipated in the Rigvedic seer's description of his cosmic transfiguration thorugh the reception of Vac in lightning-form, and
in the Atharvanic seer's words on the instant in which he embraced heaven and earth, attaining the First-born of reality as Vac within
the speaker, i.e. realizing Purusa in his own heart, which is the seat of Speech.

Alongside with such psychological descriptions of unification of reality in consciousness as we often meet in the Upanishads,
there are also otehr descritions of this process, bearing a more markedly mythical hue and keeping in close continuity with the Vedic myth.
Within man there are two purusas, a male and a female(sometimes it is said they may be seen in the right and in the left eye).
He is styled Indha, the "enkindler" - "though they call him Indra for the same of mystery, as gods lovewaht is mysterious and hate what is obvious"
-; for in his true nature he is Prana, the enkindler of life, but also of the yogic fire-body(yogaagnimayam sariram Svet.U I, 12d): the fundamental vital power,
which, according to the form - or rather the direction - of its activity, determines the lot of the individual: the downwards direction leads to individuation, the
upward one to salvation.
Whereas she is styled Viraj, with a very ancient epither of the all-goddess Vac(see alrady RV.X, 189, 3 trimsad dhama vi-rajati vak.., and later on ChU I, 13,2:ya vag virat.
"Prana is the male, the male of Vac", Sat. Br. VII, 5 1, 7). HEr character is that of consciousness, prajna or prajnatman, only partially actual in the individual self-
consciosuenss distinguishing the I from the Not-I, the inner world from the outer one.
See it is lots of information for possible(if Brahma realms aren't in 3rd jhana) first 2 jhanas.
--
i guess why you aren't happy with Hindu is that its not just bare awareness. Like in school, introductions area easy but if to look close there opens up lots of mechanics, and oops i actually need practice?

Pulsar
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Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Auto wrote
See it is lots of information for possible first 2 jhanas
cool now I know you have the book, we will get to the juicy parts later, in relation to the jhana...that will help all of us. This will make me copy parts of the book, but so what? I have all the time in the
world when it comes to defending the doctrine.
Before we do that, be a man and respond to my allegations, fight the good fight. As late Prime minister Nehru
felt, hinduism would have remained primitive to this day, had it not been for the Buddha,
and the stolen goods of you guys.
Have the scholars identified the dates of upanishad scrolls using carbon dating?
until then I am a disbeliever. Have you read Johannes Bronkhorst...to see how identical some
of your hymns are to Buddha's teachings?

But first tell me how
Kashmir Shaivism contains so many buddhistic teachings?
I am curious,
you are the expert, believer in hinduism, and multiple gods.
Be well! :candle:

auto
Posts: 1553
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by auto »

Pulsar wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:32 pm
cool now I know you have the book
From google books, i only see certain parts. I can read only this much.
Pulsar wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:32 pm
we will get to the juicy parts later, in relation to the jhana...that will help all of us. This will make me copy parts of the book, but so what? I have all the time in the
world when it comes to defending the doctrine.
if you bother, i'm sure others will be happy to read. As for me, you don't have to spend your time on it since i don't care other than people being spiteful on yogic information, secondly the claim that it doesn't exist in budhism at all.
Pulsar wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:32 pm
Before we do that, be a man and respond to my allegations, fight the good fight...
Talking about -yoga- is no different than from talking how to change the tires of a car.
Problem can be that there still aren't no-one know how to do it and get the tires changed. Hence the multitude of versions about one and the same thing to better understand, every next iteration is more downgraded till cars and tires doesn't exist anymore, that the cars and tires are myth.
Pulsar wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:32 pm
As late Prime minister Nehru
felt, hinduism would have remained primitive to this day, had it not been for the Buddha,
and the stolen goods of you guys.
primitive? hmm, supposedly there were floods what wiped out ancient civilizations. And what i care about is the myths what give hints what were these civilizations like. We can see large granite blocks as evidence of ancient civilizations.
Pulsar wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:32 pm
Have the scholars identified the dates of upanishad scrolls using carbon dating?
until then I am a disbeliever.
these as well could be from the future, if you know what i mean.. timeless knowledge.
Pulsar wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:32 pm
But first tell me how Kashmir Shaivism contains so many buddhistic teachings? I am curious,
you are the expert, believer in hinduism, and multiple gods.
i have no idea about this issue.
Pulsar wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:32 pm
Have you read Johannes Bronkhorst...to see how identical some
of your hymns are to Buddha's teachings?
No, but should i? while i know what you imply, you think Hindus take Buddhist information and also modify Buddhist Suttas to serve their cause. There is no need to read for to know what you mean. Your qualm is personal issue with not being introduced to the yoga and afraid of how much work you need to do to get into yoga or just afraid to start.
Btw i try choose my words wisely not to cause you dissect even more, so in one word i wish you could start with the yoga and read things without spite.
Also that the way i speak or the way the yogic information is presented can be cringe, for someone who doesn't believe in gods.

Pulsar
Posts: 743
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Regarding Nama Rupa, here is a few relevant excerpts, peeps do not read stuff on chat groups if text is too long.  So I simplify. Maryla Falk supplies an explanation for the artificially created scheme found in some of the suttas.
It was made necessary by increasing experimentation with the so called "Arupa samapatthis" Originally these meditations were not very important in Buddhism, though they were practiced and held central by several religious leaders, including that of Uddaka the second religious teacher of the Buddha. In DN 2 it is stated that the four simpler meditations are all that is needed to attain the fruits of sainthood, and it is significant that directly before his death Buddha went into only these meditative concentrations
From chapter 7 of Nama-Rupa. "Original Arupa Sphere"
Originally there were three spheres, Kama, Arupa, and Nirodha. Arupa contained the first four buddhist jhanas. Later the two sets of dhyanas were superimposed, one was assigned to the Rupaloka, the other to the Arupa Loka, the meditations that were practiced by non-buddhists during Buddha's time
So we must remember the real four buddhist jhanas were always Arupa, if you meditate and understand 
manomayakaya, explained in Sammanapahala
you know this for yourself. Kaya can mean a body of feelings or body of mental perceptions or simply a body of mentalities i.e. Arupa Kaya.

To repeat Buddha's last dhaynic ascension that of his passing to Nibbana, comprises only the four jhanas (in some cases this too is tampered with). In the basic narrative of the Bodhi, recording the first realization of Nibbana, the four jhanas  play the leading role.

Dear Auto, the things you say are childish. I like you, I have no spite in my heart. In Karaniya-Metta sutta it says in other words, those whose hearts are spiteful, their entry into Nibbana is blocked.
I was merely trying to make you believe in yourself, that you can do it yourself, without the intervention of an external almighty, singular or plural. Who can love you more than you yourself? in conventional tongue. No God will, gods are too busy having fun.
Have a peaceful day! maybe I will see you in nibbana, aw shucks I forgot, there is no one there. With Love :candle:

auto
Posts: 1553
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by auto »

Pulsar wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:54 am
So we must remember the real four buddhist jhanas were always Arupa, if you meditate and understand
I can understand.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=36376

if you think four primary elements are arupa, which theory could make sense.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rūpa wrote: Four primary elements[edit]
Existing rūpa consists in the four primary or underived (no-upādā) elements:
earth or solidity
fire or heat
water or cohesion
air or movement
..
https://suttacentral.net/sn22.56/en/sujato wrote:And what is form?Katamañca, bhikkhave, rūpaṃ?
The four primary elements, and form derived from the four primary elements.Cattāro ca mahābhūtā catunnañca mahābhūtānaṃ upādāya rūpaṃ.
This is called form.Idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, rūpaṃ.
Form originates from food.Āhārasamudayā rūpasamudayo;
When food ceases, form ceases.āhāranirodhā rūpanirodho.
So could be that the,
rūpa is clinging aggregate of four primary elements what depends on āhāra.
Pulsar wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:54 am
From chapter 7 of Nama-Rupa. "Original Arupa Sphere"
Originally there were three spheres, Kama, Arupa, and Nirodha. Arupa contained the first four buddhist jhanas. Later the two sets of dhyanas were superimposed, one was assigned to the Rupaloka, the other to the Arupa Loka, the meditations that were practiced by non-buddhists during Buddha's time
Can you back it up in the Suttas? that it would sound reasonable? it make sense to me, 3rd jhana is arupa(forum link I posted above). Whereas Kama sphere is 1-2 jhanas where ordinary people abide with gods and brahmans.
Pulsar wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:54 am
you know this for yourself. Kaya can mean a body of feelings or body of mental perceptions or simply a body of mentalities i.e. Arupa Kaya.
yes
Pulsar wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:54 am
Dear Auto, the things you say are childish.
ok
Pulsar wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:54 am
I like you, I have no spite in my heart. In Karaniya-Metta sutta it says in other words, those whose hearts are spiteful, their entry into Nibbana is blocked.
probably the way you speak is confusing to me
Pulsar wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:54 am
I was merely trying to make you believe in yourself, that you can do it yourself, without the intervention of an external almighty, singular or plural. Who can love you more than you yourself? in conventional tongue. No God will, gods are too busy having fun.
Have a peaceful day! maybe I will see you in nibbana, aw shucks I forgot, there is no one there.
i practice

ah and good information you shared from that book, no worries if the quotes are long.
--
this is proof how much effort you actually need put to come across or make fundament for to that people could understand what you are trying to convey.

Pulsar
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Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Dinsdale asked on 2/15/20 
Just a general question on jhana: I've read several commentaries on the four tetras of anapanasati which suggest the first three tetrads are for developing jhana.Is this basically correct?
 
it took me a while to  reflect on it. When it comes to the major suttas regarding Satipatthana and Anapanasati, I think these are meant for laymen, who require some respite from their turbulent lives. But serious meditator has to explore what the relevant Samyuttas say in detail. l looked into Anapanasamyutta. "Connected Discourses on Breathing"
Its tale is similar to Satipatthana Samyutta. In Bodhi's version, he says beginning with SN 54.7 Mahakappina Sutta,
there is a shift from Simple Anapasati to Anapanasati Bhavana
For one who understands Satipatthana, this practice using MN 118 is no different. At the entry level there is a magical quality about relying on breath, it swiftly enables one to settle into samadhi, this is  true for jhana too, when there is an interruption, the adverting to breath immediately corrects the distraction, but all these come into play
on a very subtle level
not coarsely as in "long breath and short breath" as MN 118 presents.
I think the breath part of MN 118 is somewhat corrupted by Upanisad influence. 
One must remember the Sutta compilers had an unenviable task at hand. They had to appeal to the man on the street, to woo them away from god-based religions, an appeal to self reliance, not an easy task.
If they introduced the profound meditative states at the beginning, that might be considered insensitive. So there is no need for us to say that these are bogus suttas (as was said about Staipatthana sutta), maybe watered down is a better phrase.
For the laymen, tetrads presented as following, 
is a win-win situation
First tetrad, Body: Calm bodily formation,
Experience whole body,  short breath--- long breath--- Awareness of breathing in and out forms the background of each step.


Second tetrad: Feeling: Calm mental formation,
Experience mental formation.
Experience happiness,
Experience joy 


Third tetrad: Mind: Free the mind,
Concentrate the mind,
Gladden the mind,
Experience the mind.


Fourth tetrad: Dhammas: Contemplate letting go,
Contemplate Cessation,
Contemplate Fading away,
Contemplate Impermanence


As in Satipathana, attention is on Body, feeling, mind and dhammas, sequentially.
Written in a more advanced way. Rupa Veadana, Sanna, Dhammas.

As I began my own investigation into the canon, all I could handle was the four tetrads in the simplest form. It helped quieten my mind. I still have it stuck on the door of the home refrigerator.
Advanced meditation requires devotion and a serious commitment, away from news, and overly socializing. But it is all so worth it.
As you practice the meditations, you come to realize the correspondence to the four Jhanas. Three ways of leaving the sensuous world behind, of which the four Buddhist jhanas are the most elegant, and are  laid out in Sammanapahala sutta.
Thank you for asking about the four tetrads and the four jhanas dear Dinsdale.
Fourth Jhana is like mastering a Symphony. Perhaps we can call it Symphony # 4. There is a symphony being played, but no one the player.

Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Vedana, Sanna, a firm understanding of these two processes is essential, for the follower of Buddha, for whom the path now is irresistible. Pl. pay attention to MN 18, while we carry on the discussion, or the instructions to the old monk Malunkyaputta, that I pointed to in the thread on an earlier date.
If you understand these,  you can create your own spiritual path with the aid of Buddha, without leaving your home.
You need to be ethical, in your daily conduct.There was a query on Sanna on DW recently and how that might lead to Views,  I think the OP was on to something, in presenting his case, he used  Magandiya sutta. Perception or Sanna labels the thing one just noted, the scholar says, but beyond that what?  The sutta says
For one dispassionate toward perception there are no ties

Sure but Pl. explain? How does a view arise just because one is passionate about an idea? (idea is an alternate translation of Sanna)
Let us examine carefully,  uninfluenced by scholarly lit. that brings us to dead ends (Not all).
Approach sanna not in isolation, but in context, of DO.
The point is to understand how suffering originates, and how one gains the ability to reverse the origination. One must not let it go on and on, in a dependently rising manner. "This endless samsara" Our Father in heaven said (a whimsical way of addressing Buddha),
"meditate bhikkhus meditate"
before his exit on that fateful day. I am sure Ananda cried oceans, we all would have, had we witnessed the event.
Meditation does not mean the ability to sit for hours and hours. It is the ability to incorporate the path, to every moment, mindfulness of the 37 aids to enlightenment. You can do it while chopping wood. Just pay a bit of attention to where the axe lands.
But also sit quietly sometimes, in the solitude of your own home.  Pl do not let anyone tell you that you have to sit for for 45 min.  for it to be right.
When you do sit, if you cannot collect your mind, go do something else productive, instead of wasting your time on the cushion. Water the plants, and notice how the watered plant grow better, just like a mind that is well attended to, grows to be more satisfying. 
What does Dhammapada say? One moment of mindfulness (Jhana) is worth a lifetime of non-mindfulness (non-jhana, or not practicing even a small part of the aids to enlightenment, it can be as little as your effort to discipline the rising unsavory thought). 
Do not think jhana is a magical solution, the magic is in the path, in any of the factors that aid awakening, meaning the gradual elimination of defilements. 
Will continue in a more mindful moment later. Minds get worn out by effort.
But pl check out those two suttas, when you have time. 
Thanks Ceisiwr for asking one right question. It inspired me. I think this is what DW is about, inspiring us to rightly think, and rightly investigate the dhammas.
Regarding, Attahkavagga and Prayanavagga of  the Sutta Nipata, more one visits these, more one will be surprised, at how the entire canon can be fitted into a few short verses.
If some preach the Theory of Emptiness, or Theory of Signlessness do not let it get to you, because for the theravadin, ordinary life is not empty of suffering or frustration.
We cannot help but be seduced by signs (nimittas) of general phenomena, and create suffering, until we are Arahants. Short periods when we can manage stuff like 4 buddhist jhanas, or Satipatthana bhavana,  are exceptions.
A Peaceful weekend to all! :candle:

Pulsar
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Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

How does Sanna give rise to view? To continue with the comment begun on 2/28/20, let us think of a Roman candle. How does sanna or ideation result?
One makes contact with kamaloka or kamadhatu, i.e. sensory world. This contact is the ignition of the Roman candle. A contact is made due to attention, a feeling begins.
The ignited Roman candle releases sparks (nimittas, or signals as a result of contact, fireworks of varying colors)
Looking at this soteriologically...some things can be understood only via meditation, here is a case where one meditates through experience, eyes wide open.
As a result of the visible sparks, sanna or cognizing results, (recall that nimittas are being fed into cognition, cognition also depends on stored data (previous experience, anusaya). The result is mental proliferation or papanca, MN 118, mind trying to make sense of what just happened, by the time that stream of papanca splutteringly ends,  views maybe formed, or consolidated. 
In the puthujjana conceit is enrolled in this activity, in cahoots with craving. When common people of proliferated perception perceive and proliferate, they become engaged. Cognition is overlaid by defiled perception i.e. kilesasannaya. These perceptions, stained with craving (Tanha), conceit (Mana), and views (Ditthi), obsess the person.
How does one get rid of views? A view is expelled thru Seeing the truth with which it is in contradiction. On the other hand, a defilement is abandoned thru meditation  (bhavana), when this defilement has for its object a thing abandoned thru meditation, a thing which is necessarily included within the truth of suffering or of arising...Moreover no view is abandoned through meditation, just to show how complicated the rigidification of views is, as noted by abhidhammikas.
If one is aware throughout the process of seeing, hearing, sensing, cognizing that there is no person involved, to connect with the sensing,
then one will not be here, yonder, neither in the in between
Think of the advice given to old monk Malunkyaputta, spoken of earlier in the thread.
Are all absorptions Jhana? Only absorptions filled with certain excellences are called jhana.
It is the sun that is called "the light maker" and not the firefly
 A neat statement again from the Abhidhammikas.  The thread is about jhana, but without comprehending Vedana and Sanna, four Buddhist jhanas is impossible.
With love :candle:

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confusedlayman
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Re: Jhana

Post by confusedlayman »

Pulsar wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:51 pm
Dinsdale asked on 2/15/20 
Just a general question on jhana: I've read several commentaries on the four tetras of anapanasati which suggest the first three tetrads are for developing jhana.Is this basically correct?
 
it took me a while to  reflect on it. When it comes to the major suttas regarding Satipatthana and Anapanasati, I think these are meant for laymen, who require some respite from their turbulent lives. But serious meditator has to explore what the relevant Samyuttas say in detail. l looked into Anapanasamyutta. "Connected Discourses on Breathing"
Its tale is similar to Satipatthana Samyutta. In Bodhi's version, he says beginning with SN 54.7 Mahakappina Sutta,
there is a shift from Simple Anapasati to Anapanasati Bhavana
For one who understands Satipatthana, this practice using MN 118 is no different. At the entry level there is a magical quality about relying on breath, it swiftly enables one to settle into samadhi, this is  true for jhana too, when there is an interruption, the adverting to breath immediately corrects the distraction, but all these come into play
on a very subtle level
not coarsely as in "long breath and short breath" as MN 118 presents.
I think the breath part of MN 118 is somewhat corrupted by Upanisad influence. 
One must remember the Sutta compilers had an unenviable task at hand. They had to appeal to the man on the street, to woo them away from god-based religions, an appeal to self reliance, not an easy task.
If they introduced the profound meditative states at the beginning, that might be considered insensitive. So there is no need for us to say that these are bogus suttas (as was said about Staipatthana sutta), maybe watered down is a better phrase.
For the laymen, tetrads presented as following, 
is a win-win situation
First tetrad, Body: Calm bodily formation,
Experience whole body,  short breath--- long breath--- Awareness of breathing in and out forms the background of each step.


Second tetrad: Feeling: Calm mental formation,
Experience mental formation.
Experience happiness,
Experience joy 


Third tetrad: Mind: Free the mind,
Concentrate the mind,
Gladden the mind,
Experience the mind.


Fourth tetrad: Dhammas: Contemplate letting go,
Contemplate Cessation,
Contemplate Fading away,
Contemplate Impermanence


As in Satipathana, attention is on Body, feeling, mind and dhammas, sequentially.
Written in a more advanced way. Rupa Veadana, Sanna, Dhammas.

As I began my own investigation into the canon, all I could handle was the four tetrads in the simplest form. It helped quieten my mind. I still have it stuck on the door of the home refrigerator.
Advanced meditation requires devotion and a serious commitment, away from news, and overly socializing. But it is all so worth it.
As you practice the meditations, you come to realize the correspondence to the four Jhanas. Three ways of leaving the sensuous world behind, of which the four Buddhist jhanas are the most elegant, and are  laid out in Sammanapahala sutta.
Thank you for asking about the four tetrads and the four jhanas dear Dinsdale.
Fourth Jhana is like mastering a Symphony. Perhaps we can call it Symphony # 4. There is a symphony being played, but no one the player.
No jhana for one whose body is not immobilized. feel sorry for people who think they attained jhana when they feel body/move body. feel sorry for people who think they can hear sound in jhana. feel sorry for people who get bliss of detachment and call it full 1st jhana. u can get bliss even while walking with mindfulness. extremely sorry for people who thinks they can walk/drive car in jhana. in jhana after u emerge from it ur conciousness/thought process capability should be super fast than lightning ,if not u never attained any jhanas. if u can access that concentration then keep going ahead. in jhana u have to sit and keep body without moving a bit, if u move slightly then ur body is not immobilzed. if someone can enter jhana without body getting paralysed temporarily, pls ask urself if u are kidding urself?
Find a tree and practice jhana or dont regret later- Buddha
Something exist, dont exist, both exist and non exist, neither exist nor dont exist .. all these four possibilities are wrong- Nagarjuna
Find a dhamma companion or roam alone like rhinoceros in the wild- Buddha
If you are not happy even after following 8NP then you are doing it wrong- CL (confused layman)

Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Stuck on opinion, a view arises. From the point of view of arising (samutpada), it is said that the
  • adherence to views (dittigata) have sakkayaditti for its root
  • diverse opinions rest on the view of existence and non-existence
In Brahamjala sutta, it is said that the 62 dittigata has sakkayaditti for its root. 
In the sutta of the Lions Roar, it is said that
  • all the diverse opinions rest on two views, the opinion of existence and the opinion of non-existence (bhavaditti, vibavaditti)
The view of existence is the view of permanence or eternity.
View of non-existence is the view of annihilation.
  • Although bad opinions are of numerous types, they are all included by these two opinions
  • Jhana is not a thing
Tathagatas teach the Dhamma in the middle, If this is, then that exists, if ignorance exists, then samskaras exist. Be well my dear Friends at Dhamma Wheel on a beautiful Monday morning. :candle:

Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Reflecting on Phassa or Contact, since this is an important dhamma for the good understanding DO, and also nuking or abolishing DO. Traditional formulation of Dependent Origination 
IGNORANCE-> MOTIVATING DISPOSITION->CONSCIOUSNESS->PSYCHOPHYSICALITY-> SIX SENSE FIELDS-> CONTACT->FEELINGS-> COGNITION->CRAVING->CLINGING-> RIGID BEING->DECREPITUDE->DYING
 
Pl. note that cognition or perception is a different aspect of awareness than the consciousness arisen from motivational disposition

In the case of the Arahant, we cannot fit her into the above sequence. She does not have ignorance, so motivational dispositions driven by ignorance are not found in her.
Of the remaining aspects of DO: i.e. Nama-rupa, six sense fields, contact, feeling, and cognition, operate in the Arahant, but does not proceed beyond that.
Hence cycle of DO is invalidated in the Arahant
Arahant and us(non-arahants) live in a sensory world, for sure, but we can say her feelings arisen due to contact do not affect her like they affects us, because she is free of craving
So she is not a candidate for 
CRAVING->CLINGING-> RIGID BEING->DECREPITUDE->DYING
The point of the  comment is to emphasize that Arahants are subject to contact with sensory world, but that they are not victims of craving
We can safely say that Arahant's cognition is a bare awareness, as referred to in Bahia or Malunkyaputta or MN 18.
I've referred to these earlier in the thread several times.
Bare awareness is not what some may think, since to be conscious of an object, the following is essential 
  • Contact,  turning towards, feeling of liking, disliking or neutrality and labelling
  • There is an affective dimension to every instance of awareness
  • There is the cognitive function of labelling 
  • These things operate even in Buddhas, almost below the threshold of awareness
Repeating there is no feeling without contact, not even in the saint. During periods of meditation (4 jhana) mind retreats from all contact with the sensory world.
Dear Ceisiwr thank you for inspiring me.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Jhana

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pulsar wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:35 pm
Reflecting on Phassa or Contact, since this is an important dhamma for the good understanding DO, and also nuking or abolishing DO. Traditional formulation of Dependent Origination 
IGNORANCE-> MOTIVATING DISPOSITION->CONSCIOUSNESS->PSYCHOPHYSICALITY-> SIX SENSE FIELDS-> CONTACT->FEELINGS-> COGNITION->CRAVING->CLINGING-> RIGID BEING->DECREPITUDE->DYING
 
Pl. note that cognition or perception is a different aspect of awareness than the consciousness arisen from motivational disposition

In the case of the Arahant, we cannot fit her into the above sequence. She does not have ignorance, so motivational dispositions driven by ignorance are not found in her.
Of the remaining aspects of DO: i.e. Nama-rupa, six sense fields, contact, feeling, and cognition, operate in the Arahant, but does not proceed beyond that.
Hence cycle of DO is invalidated in the Arahant
Arahant and us(non-arahants) live in a sensory world, for sure, but we can say her feelings arisen due to contact do not affect her like they affects us, because she is free of craving
So she is not a candidate for 
CRAVING->CLINGING-> RIGID BEING->DECREPITUDE->DYING
The point of the  comment is to emphasize that Arahants are subject to contact with sensory world, but that they are not victims of craving
We can safely say that Arahant's cognition is a bare awareness, as referred to in Bahia or Malunkyaputta or MN 18.
I've referred to these earlier in the thread several times.
Bare awareness is not what some may think, since to be conscious of an object, the following is essential 
  • Contact,  turning towards, feeling of liking, disliking or neutrality and labelling
  • There is an affective dimension to every instance of awareness
  • There is the cognitive function of labelling 
  • These things operate even in Buddhas, almost below the threshold of awareness
Repeating there is no feeling without contact, not even in the saint. During periods of meditation (4 jhana) mind retreats from all contact with the sensory world.
Dear Ceisiwr thank you for inspiring me.


You’re welcome :)

You may like Ven. Nanananda’s book on meditation called “Seeing Through”. You can find a pdf copy (among other great works) here: http://seeingthroughthenet.net/wp-conte ... ev-0_3.pdf
“For that is false, bhikkhu, which has a deceptive nature, and that is true which has an undeceptive nature—Nibbāna. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this truth possesses the supreme foundation of truth. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble truth, namely, Nibbāna, which has an undeceptive nature.” MN 140

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