Breath

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
User avatar
Collective
Posts: 217
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:12 am

Re: Breath

Post by Collective »

Now that is what I wanted to hear.

This is what I was trying to explain earlier, that I just watch the whole breath, the very act of experiencing the whole breath. I don't know, call it body breathing :) It isn't at the abdomen, the nose, or even the chest, yet it's all those but none in particular.

This what I do, and, more importantly, I can always locate it. :namaste:
Kenshou
Posts: 1030
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:03 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: Breath

Post by Kenshou »

That sounds like just the ticket, then.

I don't believe that what the object is is so important (at least for samatha), it's just that it's needed as something for the mind to cohere to, so that it can withdraw* from outside preoccupations, calm the wandering of thoughts, and dive into the experience of the present. And the breath happens to both be convenient, and intimately connected to us, so it's a good object, for those who are comfortable using it.

Look at the classic 1st jhana description, There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal*, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation (upon the object used to settle the mind and enter the state)

So if you have an object, whatever it is, that you can find easily, can concentrate the mind upon without tension, and is conductive to relaxation, then I would say that you've probably got the basic toolkit necessary to make progress. Now you have to go play with it!
User avatar
Collective
Posts: 217
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:12 am

Re: Breath

Post by Collective »

And I guess the beauty of all this, is when you come off the cushion, there's a billion things you can choose to focus on throughout the day.
User avatar
Collective
Posts: 217
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:12 am

Re: Breath

Post by Collective »

Is it important to actually feel sensation in my nostrils? Or can I just focus my attention on the nostrils and know for a surety that the breath passes through them?
Reductor
Posts: 1382
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2009 6:52 am
Location: Alberta, Canada

Re: Breath

Post by Reductor »

Collective wrote:Is it important to actually feel sensation in my nostrils? Or can I just focus my attention on the nostrils and know for a surety that the breath passes through them?
That will work. I don't focus on the sensation of breath going in and out of the nostrils but just 'center' my awareness on some part of my face or head. Sometimes the lips, sometimes the forehead, sometimes the tip of the nose. As long as I have a sense of being centered there.
User avatar
Collective
Posts: 217
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:12 am

Re: Breath

Post by Collective »

thereductor wrote:
Collective wrote:Is it important to actually feel sensation in my nostrils? Or can I just focus my attention on the nostrils and know for a surety that the breath passes through them?
That will work. I don't focus on the sensation of breath going in and out of the nostrils but just 'center' my awareness on some part of my face or head. Sometimes the lips, sometimes the forehead, sometimes the tip of the nose. As long as I have a sense of being centered there.
I think that's the important bit. Maybe it's not so much the breath that's important, it's more the being present, and not being in the past or future.

Thank you :)
User avatar
catmoon
Posts: 369
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2009 1:59 am

Re: Breath

Post by catmoon »

Hiya collective


If you have anxiety in meditation, look at your motivation. You have mentioned relaxation, focus, insight .. basically everything but bodhicitta.

Ask yourself "Why am I doing these meditations?"

You need to recover the ultimate aim. Then things will go better.
User avatar
Collective
Posts: 217
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:12 am

Re: Breath

Post by Collective »

catmoon wrote:Hiya collective


If you have anxiety in meditation, look at your motivation. You have mentioned relaxation, focus, insight .. basically everything but bodhicitta.

Ask yourself "Why am I doing these meditations?"

You need to recover the ultimate aim. Then things will go better.
I thought all these techniques were a path to bodhicitta
User avatar
Virgo
Posts: 1546
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:52 pm
Location: United States

Re: Breath

Post by Virgo »

Collective wrote:I'm practising vipassana.

The instructions are to just focus on the breath, the sensation in the nose. Warm, cool, that kind of thing. But it gets so subtle, I can't.
You should focus on developing all of the Ten Perfections. Why? Because they are the root of cultivating kusala in a Buddhist sense, and kusala mental states lead to calm. The more the Perfections are practiced, the more conditions there are for kusala mind states, and therefore it is easier for your meditation to develop. It is impossible to develop meditation effectively without developing the Perfections. Why? Because There are simply too many akusala mental states, which means lots of lobha and dosa - attachment and aversion - and therefore the mind does not settle on it's object.
Kenshou
Posts: 1030
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:03 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: Breath

Post by Kenshou »

Having a mindstate conductive to the development of meditation (or rather, success in meditation) requires adequate morality, and practice. If you want to talk about the ten perfections, they'll be developed naturally in following the eightfold path. How is that developed? Practice. Learning to keep the mind centered upon the breath when it becomes more subtle strikes me as more of an issue of practice-makes-perfect rather than insufficient paramis. One probably must already have a level of development in the perfections to take any interest in the dhamma in the first place, but in the bizarre situation where someone had a high development of paramis but very little skill in meditation, I bet they'd need some time to practice, too.

Telling someone to develop the perfections seems tantamount to telling someone to "get more enlightened". Of course that's what we're all trying to do, but that's just too vague to be useful.
User avatar
Virgo
Posts: 1546
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:52 pm
Location: United States

Re: Breath

Post by Virgo »

Kenshou wrote:Having a mindstate conductive to the development of meditation (or rather, success in meditation) requires adequate morality, and practice. If you want to talk about the ten perfections, they'll be developed naturally in following the eightfold path. How is that developed? Practice. Learning to keep the mind centered upon the breath when it becomes more subtle strikes me as more of an issue of practice-makes-perfect rather than insufficient paramis. One probably must already have a level of development in the perfections to take any interest in the dhamma in the first place, but in the bizarre situation where someone had a high development of paramis but very little skill in meditation, I bet they'd need some time to practice, too.

Telling someone to develop the perfections seems tantamount to telling someone to "get more enlightened". Of course that's what we're all trying to do, but that's just too vague to be useful.
The point is that only kusala citta lead to calm. When the mind is calm and kusala ones meditation can develop. The way to having kusala citta arise more and more is to condition it through the Perfections such as Generosity, Patience, and so on. When we focus on these things, less unwholesome mind states arise and then our mind can settle down during samatha meditation because it is not pushed and pulled with attachment and aversion so much.
User avatar
catmoon
Posts: 369
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2009 1:59 am

Re: Breath

Post by catmoon »

Collective wrote:
catmoon wrote:Hiya collective


If you have anxiety in meditation, look at your motivation. You have mentioned relaxation, focus, insight .. basically everything but bodhicitta.

Ask yourself "Why am I doing these meditations?"

You need to recover the ultimate aim. Then things will go better.
I thought all these techniques were a path to bodhicitta
Are you doing metta meditations?
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Breath

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Collective, Catmoon, all,
Collective wrote:
catmoon wrote:Hiya collective

If you have anxiety in meditation, look at your motivation. You have mentioned relaxation, focus, insight .. basically everything but bodhicitta.

Ask yourself "Why am I doing these meditations?"

You need to recover the ultimate aim. Then things will go better.
I thought all these techniques were a path to bodhicitta
Bodhicitta is a Mahayana term is not found in the Pali Canon or in the instructions of Theravada meditation teachers... therefore it's not really appropriate to this sub-forum.

:focus:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
Collective
Posts: 217
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:12 am

Re: Breath

Post by Collective »

I like the idea of following the 8 fold path to enhance a calm mind. Generosity, Patience, Forgiveness etc. Focusing on these virtues means less attention to negative thoughts/feelings, which in turn settles us down because it is "not pushed and pulled with attachment and aversion so much".

Thanks for that :namaste:
User avatar
Virgo
Posts: 1546
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:52 pm
Location: United States

Re: Breath

Post by Virgo »

Collective wrote:I like the idea of following the 8 fold path to enhance a calm mind. Generosity, Patience, Forgiveness etc. Focusing on these virtues means less attention to negative thoughts/feelings, which in turn settles us down because it is "not pushed and pulled with attachment and aversion so much".

Thanks for that :namaste:
Your welcome.

Kevin
Post Reply