cittanupassana

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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effort
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cittanupassana

Post by effort » Sat Nov 28, 2009 9:26 am

in vipassana as i understand there is no direct method of meditating on the mind object, and the way vipassana approaches to mind meditation is during mediation on physical object like body or abdomen when a gross mind state like greed or torpor appears and meditator notes that. so there is no direct method of mind object meditation? or there is and that is calm abiding? i remember that there was a huge topic about calm abiding in in esangha.

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retrofuturist
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Re: cittanupassana

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Nov 28, 2009 9:31 am

Greetings effort,

Well there is... and you named it in the title of this subject, cittanupassana!

The method is taught in...

MN 10: Satipatthana Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and associated commentaries such as...

The Way of Mindfulness (The Satipatthana Sutta and Its Commentary) by Soma Thera
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... wayof.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Ben
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Re: cittanupassana

Post by Ben » Sat Nov 28, 2009 9:43 am

Hi Effort
My primary object is vedana and sometimes I switch to citta. I remember my teacher saying a couple of years ago during retreat that by observing vedana one was also observing the mind the reason being that all but four classes of cittas co-arise with vedana. For me personally, I find cittanupassana too ephemeral for daily practice and I find I benefit more with something more earthy - hence vedananupassana.
All the best.

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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effort
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Re: cittanupassana

Post by effort » Sat Nov 28, 2009 10:11 am

thanks ben, it is exactly what is in this record:

http://www.dharmaseed.org/teacher/29/ta ... f_mind.mp3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

retro, but i didnt heard anytime that a teacher instructing sit and look at your 5 kinds of consciousness, or mental qualities directly ( something like what they do in vedana)

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Re: cittanupassana

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Nov 28, 2009 11:39 am

Greetings Effort,
effort wrote:retro, but i didnt heard anytime that a teacher instructing sit and look at your 5 kinds of consciousness, or mental qualities directly ( something like what they do in vedana)
Well that's where what teachers teach, differs from what the Buddha taught, isn't it? :shrug:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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effort
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Re: cittanupassana

Post by effort » Sat Nov 28, 2009 12:33 pm

you know retro, it is really strange for me that in some sects ( other than theravada ) they emphasize on merely sitting and being aware of your current mind, and in theravada there is no instruction at all for this(almost) or if there is i dont know.

bhikkhu khemavamsa has a book about cittanupassana and thats the only one that i saw directly pointing to that, but interestingly he is a theravadian.

i think the first hand experiment for the teachers in theravada comes from ajahn lee or around that time till now( and there is a huge gap into real practice till almost 150-200 years ago), and during this period of time the most influential teachers were mostly focusing on veddana because they didnt had a reliable teachers to teach them directly other aspects of nupassana, so because of this there is not so many different approaches in theravada.

i mean its not fair becuase as long as i observe breath i loss my mind balance, my hearth rate, over breathing and many others problems but i can sit and look to mind( i know this is not like arising and passing away,and mostly like i, self, consciousness) and there must be a way that i( or people who are like me) can use this object to do vipassana.

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Ben
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Re: cittanupassana

Post by Ben » Sat Nov 28, 2009 1:41 pm

Hi effort
My experience has been that when one is practicing vedananupassana for an extended period in a retreat setting, the mind becomes more sensitive and stable and one's attention can more easily switch to mind states without getting blown away or embroiled in identifying with mental content. The monkey mind is happening all the time, but as one settles into vedananupassana there is less grasping and identifying with the mind states and mental content and more observation. If you can observe the anicca characteristic (or for that matter the dukkha or anatta characteristic) of mental states, then you are practicing vipassana.
It would be worthwhile checking out the section on cittanupassana in the visuddhimagga - if you have a copy.
metta

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

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Re: cittanupassana

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Nov 28, 2009 6:44 pm

Hi Effort,
effort wrote:you know retro, it is really strange for me that in some sects ( other than theravada ) they emphasize on merely sitting and being aware of your current mind, and in theravada there is no instruction at all for this(almost) or if there is i dont know.
I don't understand this statement. There is a lot of detail in the Satipatthana Sutta:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
C. Mind

"And how does a monk remain focused on the mind in & of itself? There is the case where a monk, when the mind has passion, discerns that the mind has passion. When the mind is without passion, he discerns that the mind is without passion. When the mind has aversion, he discerns that the mind has aversion. When the mind is without aversion, he discerns that the mind is without aversion. When the mind has delusion, he discerns that the mind has delusion. When the mind is without delusion, he discerns that the mind is without delusion.
...
Usually a teacher will have you start with one of the body contemplations (e.g. motion of the feet or the abdomen in the Mahasi school), then, once you have some calm to notice "feelings" (whether a sensation is pleasant, painful, or neutral), then progress on to looking at the mind states ("moods" is a useful rough translation, in my opinion). As Ben says, these are rather subtle, and it's hard to catch them changing, so it's something you progress to after some practise and you won't necessarily see in introductory instructions.

Metta
Mike

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bazzaman
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Re: cittanupassana

Post by bazzaman » Sun Nov 29, 2009 12:39 am

.
Last edited by bazzaman on Mon Feb 14, 2011 1:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
Atāṇo loko anabhissaro...

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effort
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Re: cittanupassana

Post by effort » Mon Mar 01, 2010 5:43 pm

When the mind has delusion, he discerns that the mind has delusion. When the mind is without delusion, he discerns that the mind is without delusion.
how someone could know there is delusion?

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Ben
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Re: cittanupassana

Post by Ben » Mon Mar 01, 2010 8:47 pm

Hi effort
So long as one is a putthujana, delusion is present.
But for practical purposes, one can know delusion is present in the mind by observing the dominant hindrance or sankhara that may be manifesting through one or more of the satipatthanas.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

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bodom
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Re: cittanupassana

Post by bodom » Mon Mar 01, 2010 9:24 pm

effort wrote:
When the mind has delusion, he discerns that the mind has delusion. When the mind is without delusion, he discerns that the mind is without delusion.
how someone could know there is delusion?
A fool who knows his foolishness is wise at least to that extent, but a fool who thinks himself wise is a fool indeed. - Dhp 63

:anjali:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With no struggling, no thinking,
the mind, still,
will see cause and effect
vanishing in the Void.
Attached to nothing, letting go:
Know that this is the way
to allay all stress.

- Upasika Kee Nanayan

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Re: cittanupassana

Post by Goofaholix » Mon Mar 01, 2010 11:27 pm

effort wrote:how someone could know there is delusion?
You can pretty much assume there is always going to be a measure of delusion present, so you can be open to observe it all the time. There is going to be a delay, sometimes a long delay before you really see it for what it is, when you do see it for what it is then that's wisdom and you have to opprtunity to let go.

As mentioned before Sayadaw U Tejaniya teaches Cittanupassana so i recommend you have a look through http://sayadawutejaniya.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Other teaches tend to teach it after you've had a good grounding in other foundations of mindfulness, so just because it's not immediately apparent that they teach it doesn't mean they don't.I think it's a difficult practice unless you've had a good grounding in other foundations of mindfulness first.
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.” ― Ajahn Chah

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Re: cittanupassana

Post by acinteyyo » Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:59 am

effort wrote:
When the mind has delusion, he discerns that the mind has delusion. When the mind is without delusion, he discerns that the mind is without delusion.
how someone could know there is delusion?
I just came across an Ajahn Chah quote which reminds me of this thread:
Someone commented, "I can observe desire and aversion in my mind, but it's hard to observe delusion".
"You're riding on a horse and asking where the horse is?" was Ajahn Chah's reply.
best wishes, acinteyyo
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

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Alexei
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Re: cittanupassana

Post by Alexei » Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:57 pm

effort wrote:how someone could know there is delusion?
Perhaps, it is knowledge, that there is some wrong view. E.g. following unwholesome intention may lead to happiness or identifying with dhammas.

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