Christian Afterlife in Buddhist Context

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
truthseeker135
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:39 pm

Christian Afterlife in Buddhist Context

Post by truthseeker135 » Thu Feb 13, 2020 1:58 am

Recently my uncle passed away and my family contacted a psychic. I am generally skeptical when it comes to psychics and I was not there at the time so take this with a grain of salt. My family said that the psychic described my father, my uncle, grandfather, and grandmother accurately. They said the psychic told them certain details about them for example she said my devoutly catholic grandmother was praying the rosary for my cousin who is going through a rough patch in life which sounds like her. This psychic seemed to reflect the traditional christian view of heaven. This got me thinking about how this plays into the buddhist context of rebirth. Again I'm not entirely convinced, but for the sake of argument let's assume that this psychic is actually psychic and did see these things.
Were these people simply reborn as devas in a heavenly realm? If so why did they remember who they were in their past life, keeping their form and connecting with relatives that also died?
Will they eventually forget who they were in that past life or will they stay in that earthly form with those earthly memories until they pass on to their next life?
I've heard from some that this could be a transitional phase between rebirths like some kind of purgatory, but my father and grandfather have been dead for over 15 years so this doesn't make much sense to me.
Could this be a ghost realm rather than a deva realm?

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 3768
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: Christian Afterlife in Buddhist Context

Post by cappuccino » Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:01 am

heaven beings remember the past

also, Christians have right view

because they accept the afterlife
Last edited by cappuccino on Thu Feb 13, 2020 1:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 7198
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Christian Afterlife in Buddhist Context

Post by DooDoot » Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:39 am

truthseeker135 wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 1:58 am
This psychic seemed to reflect the traditional christian view of heaven.
Hi TS135

Buddhism clearly says there are psychics who can read the minds of others. However, while the psychic could have spoken the truth about your family history due to knowing the memories in the mind of the living family members, this does not necessarily mean what the psychic said about heaven is true.
truthseeker135 wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 1:58 am
This got me thinking about how this plays into the buddhist context of rebirth.
Its good to 1st examine what Jesus said about "rebirth":
Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV
Therefore, it appears Jesus taught about a rebirth of the spirit (mind) via purification (of water). In other words, "born anew into a good person" or "new creature" (rather than reincarnation), as follows:
2 Corinthians 5:17 King James Version (KJV)

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=KJV
In other words, we can't really know what Jesus taught about "heaven". Often in the Gospels, it seems Jesus equated "heaven" with the happiness derived from doing good deed, such as charity.

Kind regards :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 3768
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: Christian Afterlife in Buddhist Context

Post by cappuccino » Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:53 am

DooDoot wrote: In other words, we can't really know what Jesus taught about "heaven".
why such fear of rebirth?


fear is justified actually

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 7198
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Christian Afterlife in Buddhist Context

Post by DooDoot » Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:03 am

cappuccino wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:53 am
why such fear of rebirth?
Rebirth is clinging. The Buddha taught to fear clinging (upadana/upadhi).
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

TRobinson465
Posts: 575
Joined: Thu May 12, 2016 5:29 pm
Location: United States

Re: Christian Afterlife in Buddhist Context

Post by TRobinson465 » Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:48 am

cappuccino wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:01 am
heaven beings remember the past

also, Christians have the right view

because they accept the afterlife
one of the right views yes.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

confusedlayman
Posts: 796
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am

Re: Christian Afterlife in Buddhist Context

Post by confusedlayman » Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:06 am

truthseeker135 wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 1:58 am
Recently my uncle passed away and my family contacted a psychic. I am generally skeptical when it comes to psychics and I was not there at the time so take this with a grain of salt. My family said that the psychic described my father, my uncle, grandfather, and grandmother accurately. They said the psychic told them certain details about them for example she said my devoutly catholic grandmother was praying the rosary for my cousin who is going through a rough patch in life which sounds like her. This psychic seemed to reflect the traditional christian view of heaven. This got me thinking about how this plays into the buddhist context of rebirth. Again I'm not entirely convinced, but for the sake of argument let's assume that this psychic is actually psychic and did see these things.
Were these people simply reborn as devas in a heavenly realm? If so why did they remember who they were in their past life, keeping their form and connecting with relatives that also died?
Will they eventually forget who they were in that past life or will they stay in that earthly form with those earthly memories until they pass on to their next life?
I've heard from some that this could be a transitional phase between rebirths like some kind of purgatory, but my father and grandfather have been dead for over 15 years so this doesn't make much sense to me.
Could this be a ghost realm rather than a deva realm?
It’s impossible to know unless u see for urself.
non-agitation is highest peace
living unaffected by other cause and condition to suffering is true bliss
not associating with stupid people is immediate peace
- CL (confused layman)

User avatar
Kim OHara
Posts: 5189
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:47 am
Location: North Queensland, Australia

Re: Christian Afterlife in Buddhist Context

Post by Kim OHara » Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:22 am

confusedlayman wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:06 am
It’s impossible to know unless u see for urself.
and you can't go there as a tourist, so no-one posts selfies from the Pearly Gates.

:coffee:
Kim

auto
Posts: 1430
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Christian Afterlife in Buddhist Context

Post by auto » Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:24 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:39 am
Therefore, it appears Jesus taught about a rebirth of the spirit (mind) via purification (of water). In other words, "born anew into a good person" or "new creature" (rather than reincarnation), as follows:
You might be mistaking cultivation tips with reincarnation.

Another query is how, what you have described, is even different from reincarnation.. you can become pure "born anew into good person" and still reincarnating.
DooDoot wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:39 am
In other words, we can't really know what Jesus taught about "heaven". Often in the Gospels, it seems Jesus equated "heaven" with the happiness derived from doing good deed, such as charity.
happiness derived from good deed.. well if spirituality would be that shallow, what is the point striving.. human life is too short to aspire mere happiness through deeds what perhaps ripen decades later, making some temporal happy feeling like winning championship, its known it lasts only couple days..
Charity :D :D you are really funny DD
https://suttacentral.net/an3.41/en/sujato wrote: “Mendicants, when three things are present, a faithful gentleman makes much merit.
“Tiṇṇaṃ, bhikkhave, sammukhībhāvā saddho kulaputto bahuṃ puññaṃ pasavati.What three?Katamesaṃ tiṇṇaṃ?
When faith is present,
Saddhāya, bhikkhave, sammukhībhāvā saddho kulaputto bahuṃ puññaṃ pasavati.
when a gift to give is present,
Deyyadhammassa, bhikkhave, sammukhībhāvā saddho kulaputto bahuṃ puññaṃ pasavati.
and when those worthy of a religious donation are present.
Dakkhiṇeyyānaṃ, bhikkhave, sammukhībhāvā saddho kulaputto bahuṃ puññaṃ pasavati.
When these three things are present, a faithful gentleman makes much merit.”Imesaṃ kho, bhikkhave, tiṇṇaṃ sammukhībhāvā saddho kulaputto bahuṃ puññaṃ pasavatī”ti.
Puñña
http://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/p/puñña wrote: Puñña,(nt.) [cp.(late) Vedic puṇya favourable,good; etym.not clear,it may be dialectical.The word is expld by Dhammapāla as “santānaṁ punāti visodheti,” i.e.cleaning the continuation (of life) VvA.19,thus taken to pu.The expln is of course fanciful] merit,meritorious action,virtue.
..
Always represented as foundation and condition of heavenly rebirth & a future blissful state,the enjoyment (& duration) of which depends on the amount of merit accumulated in a former existence.
blissful state depends on the merit accumulated in a former existence.
=http://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/p/puñña wrote:With ref.to this life there are esp.3 qualities contributing to merit,viz.,dāna,sīla & bhāvanā or liberality,good conduct & contemplation.These are the puñña-kiriya-vatthūni (see below).
Another set of ten consists of these 3 and apaciti,veyyāvacca,patti-anuppadāna,abbhanumodanā,desanā,savana,diṭṭh’ujjuka-kamma.The opp.of puñña is either apuñña (D.III,119; S.I,114; II,82; A.I,154; III,412; Sdhp.54,75) or pāpa (Sn.520; Dh.39; Nett 96; PvA.5).The true Arahant is above both ..

User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 12861
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Christian Afterlife in Buddhist Context

Post by DNS » Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:11 pm

truthseeker135 wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 1:58 am
They said the psychic told them certain details about them for example she said my devoutly catholic grandmother was praying the rosary for my cousin who is going through a rough patch in life which sounds like her.
That would be expected. As a devout Catholic, we'd expect her to pray the rosary.

It's known as cold reading where the psychics throw out general comments and someone picks it up as something that happened in their life. And then they ask questions, for example, "I keep seeing something white, what is that?" And the unsuspecting person says, "wow, my parents had a white car."


User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 3768
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: Christian Afterlife in Buddhist Context

Post by cappuccino » Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:20 pm

"Then the person without faith, without conviction, would say to the person with faith and with conviction: 'Sir, there is a charm called the Gandhari charm by which the monk wielded manifold psychic powers...' What do you think, Kevatta — isn't that what the man without faith, without conviction, would say to the man with faith and with conviction?"

"Yes, lord, that's just what he would say."

"Seeing this drawback to the miracle of psychic power, Kevatta, I feel horrified, humiliated, and disgusted with the miracle of psychic power.

Kevatta Sutta

cookiemonster
Posts: 248
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 4:42 am

Re: Christian Afterlife in Buddhist Context

Post by cookiemonster » Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:02 pm

truthseeker135 wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 1:58 am
Recently my uncle passed away and my family contacted a psychic. I am generally skeptical when it comes to psychics and I was not there at the time so take this with a grain of salt. My family said that the psychic described my father, my uncle, grandfather, and grandmother accurately. They said the psychic told them certain details about them for example she said my devoutly catholic grandmother was praying the rosary for my cousin who is going through a rough patch in life which sounds like her. This psychic seemed to reflect the traditional christian view of heaven. This got me thinking about how this plays into the buddhist context of rebirth. Again I'm not entirely convinced, but for the sake of argument let's assume that this psychic is actually psychic and did see these things.
Were these people simply reborn as devas in a heavenly realm? If so why did they remember who they were in their past life, keeping their form and connecting with relatives that also died?
Will they eventually forget who they were in that past life or will they stay in that earthly form with those earthly memories until they pass on to their next life?
I've heard from some that this could be a transitional phase between rebirths like some kind of purgatory, but my father and grandfather have been dead for over 15 years so this doesn't make much sense to me.
Could this be a ghost realm rather than a deva realm?
Many devas in the Buddhist scriptures are described as remembering their former lives on earth.

confusedlayman
Posts: 796
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am

Re: Christian Afterlife in Buddhist Context

Post by confusedlayman » Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:48 am

Kim OHara wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:22 am
confusedlayman wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:06 am
It’s impossible to know unless u see for urself.
and you can't go there as a tourist, so no-one posts selfies from the Pearly Gates.

:coffee:
Kim
Then no use pondering no one in the forum has seen or remember at this moment.
non-agitation is highest peace
living unaffected by other cause and condition to suffering is true bliss
not associating with stupid people is immediate peace
- CL (confused layman)

auto
Posts: 1430
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Christian Afterlife in Buddhist Context

Post by auto » Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:21 pm

DNS wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:11 pm
truthseeker135 wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 1:58 am
They said the psychic told them certain details about them for example she said my devoutly catholic grandmother was praying the rosary for my cousin who is going through a rough patch in life which sounds like her.
That would be expected. As a devout Catholic, we'd expect her to pray the rosary.

It's known as cold reading where the psychics throw out general comments and someone picks it up as something that happened in their life. And then they ask questions, for example, "I keep seeing something white, what is that?" And the unsuspecting person says, "wow, my parents had a white car."

When you think the self/soul is like a Theseus ship or Jesus healing power is some sort of hagiography. Then hardly the reasoning is unbiased from the assumption of it being fake from the start.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus wrote: In the metaphysics of identity, the ship of Theseus is a thought experiment that raises the question of whether an object that has had all of its components replaced remains fundamentally the same object. The concept is one of the oldest in Western philosophy, having been discussed by the likes of Heraclitus and Plato by ca. 500-400 BC.

User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 12861
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Christian Afterlife in Buddhist Context

Post by DNS » Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:12 pm

auto wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:21 pm
DNS wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:11 pm
truthseeker135 wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 1:58 am
They said the psychic told them certain details about them for example she said my devoutly catholic grandmother was praying the rosary for my cousin who is going through a rough patch in life which sounds like her.
That would be expected. As a devout Catholic, we'd expect her to pray the rosary.

It's known as cold reading where the psychics throw out general comments and someone picks it up as something that happened in their life. And then they ask questions, for example, "I keep seeing something white, what is that?" And the unsuspecting person says, "wow, my parents had a white car."

When you think the self/soul is like a Theseus ship or Jesus healing power is some sort of hagiography. Then hardly the reasoning is unbiased from the assumption of it being fake from the start.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus wrote: In the metaphysics of identity, the ship of Theseus is a thought experiment that raises the question of whether an object that has had all of its components replaced remains fundamentally the same object. The concept is one of the oldest in Western philosophy, having been discussed by the likes of Heraclitus and Plato by ca. 500-400 BC.
Huh? Sounds like a false analogy. Expecting a devout Catholic to pray the rosary has nothing to do with whatever beliefs I may or may not have.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: cappuccino, Sam Vara and 81 guests