Hello All,
This has been mentioned in ES recently, but as I understand it, one has no choice in what level of Buddhahood they will eventually obtain. So, one cannot choose to become a Sammasambuddha, but rather can make the vow in front of a Sammasambuddha and only hope the Buddha has the prophecy ready for them. I read on ES there is nothing in the suttas supporting choice.
If this is the case, what is it determining the path of a Buddha? Is it their kamma that leads them to whatever specific Buddhahood they will obtain? If that's true, then it does suggest choice - because our actions determine our kamma, right? (But then it's also the other way around - our kamma affects our actions. You can't avoid the circle!)
Surely it isn't some secret random process.
Dhammakid
Aspiration, Vows and Choice
Re: Aspiration, Vows and Choice
Kamma may affect our actions but it doesn't determine them.Dhammakid wrote:(But then it's also the other way around - our kamma affects our actions. You can't avoid the circle!)
If you believe you can't avoid the circle then doesn't that mean you also necessarily believe there is no escape from samsara?
- Peter
Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
Re: Aspiration, Vows and Choice
Sure, which is why I was careful to use "affect" instead of "determine". I have an idea of where you're going with that, but just to make sure, do you mind elaborating a bit more?Peter wrote: Kamma may affect our actions but it doesn't determine them.
I didn't really mean that literally. It was more of a smirky end comment. Yes, I do believe there is escape.Peter wrote: If you believe you can't avoid the circle then doesn't that mean you also necessarily believe there is no escape from samsara?
Dhammakid
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Re: Aspiration, Vows and Choice
Hi Dhammakid!Dhammakid wrote:Hello All,
This has been mentioned in ES recently, but as I understand it, one has no choice in what level of Buddhahood they will eventually obtain. So, one cannot choose to become a Sammasambuddha, but rather can make the vow in front of a Sammasambuddha and only hope the Buddha has the prophecy ready for them. I read on ES there is nothing in the suttas supporting choice.
If this is the case, what is it determining the path of a Buddha? Is it their kamma that leads them to whatever specific Buddhahood they will obtain? If that's true, then it does suggest choice - because our actions determine our kamma, right? (But then it's also the other way around - our kamma affects our actions. You can't avoid the circle!)
Surely it isn't some secret random process.
Dhammakid
I don't think it's the case that past karma determines our actions. Think of it this way: If you plant an apple seed in your yard and an apple tree grows there after a while, will you then have a choice to chop it down or nourish it? The tree is the result of the seed you planted before, then you have the choice of what to do with it. Eating the fruit would be your current action (karma).
So past karma [action] does not determine current karma [action]. Past karma can bear different kinds of fruit, and it's often mental affliction.
Best,
Drolma
Re: Aspiration, Vows and Choice
I understand this. Thanks for explaining. But I guess my question is: what is it that determines the path of a Buddha? Or is there nothing - it's just a waiting game lead by chance, and one just has to wait and see what kind of Buddha they will become? Because if we have no choice which we will become, what is the point of the vows and aspiration in the first place?Drolma wrote:I don't think it's the case that past karma determines our actions. Think of it this way: If you plant an apple seed in your yard and an apple tree grows there after a while, will you then have a choice to chop it down or nourish it? The tree is the result of the seed you planted before, then you have the choice of what to do with it. Eating the fruit would be your current action (karma).
So past karma [action] does not determine current karma [action]. Past karma can bear different kinds of fruit, and it's often mental affliction.
Best,
Drolma
Dhammakid
Re: Aspiration, Vows and Choice
I'm not sure if this addresses your question... well it's a good sutta anyway.Dhammakid wrote:what is the point of the vows and aspiration in the first place?
- Peter
Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
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Re: Aspiration, Vows and Choice
the problem with trying to understand past karma, is if you try to go too far back youre really just playing a game of sorts.
but if we just take our present life, and our kamma made in this life we can see how it plays out in our daily lives.
i chose to drop out of uni years ago, i though i had the rest of my life to play around, my wife had a good job and i was pretty well taken care of (physically, emotionaly i was in a very abusive and crappy situation)
this was my choice. my kamma. it hasnt been the best of choices for me. my marrage ended, which has been great for me in many ways, but i have to take crappy jobs cause i'm considered uneducated, i used to work with scientists and be consided somewhat of an intelectual, now i get no respect, and people assume i'm some lazy idiot.
thats my karma. does it determine my actions? yes, very much so. i'm presently getting ready to go back to uni. i hate the life i made for myself, i hate that i'm not in a position to just buy whatever i want for the girl i love, or just go to thailand with her to visit her parents etc. my past life, plays out everyday in my present one. it doesnt determine what i do, or who i will be. but it has an effect.
but if we just take our present life, and our kamma made in this life we can see how it plays out in our daily lives.
i chose to drop out of uni years ago, i though i had the rest of my life to play around, my wife had a good job and i was pretty well taken care of (physically, emotionaly i was in a very abusive and crappy situation)
this was my choice. my kamma. it hasnt been the best of choices for me. my marrage ended, which has been great for me in many ways, but i have to take crappy jobs cause i'm considered uneducated, i used to work with scientists and be consided somewhat of an intelectual, now i get no respect, and people assume i'm some lazy idiot.
thats my karma. does it determine my actions? yes, very much so. i'm presently getting ready to go back to uni. i hate the life i made for myself, i hate that i'm not in a position to just buy whatever i want for the girl i love, or just go to thailand with her to visit her parents etc. my past life, plays out everyday in my present one. it doesnt determine what i do, or who i will be. but it has an effect.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ
the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
Re: Aspiration, Vows and Choice
Thanks Peter. Very good sutta indeed. No matter the aspiration or vow, right practice must be kept to see any results whatsoever. And when right practice is kept, the results will come regardless of vow or aspiration.Peter wrote:I'm not sure if this addresses your question... well it's a good sutta anyway.Dhammakid wrote:what is the point of the vows and aspiration in the first place?
So is this suggesting one doesn't really have any control over the results? If so, what is the point of making the vow in front of a teaching Buddha? And what is it that sends one being down the path towards teaching Buddahood, and another down the path to simple Nibbana?
Dhammakid
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Re: Aspiration, Vows and Choice
Greetings Dhammakid,
The way I see it, if the Buddha wanted us to strive for Buddhahood he would have said so. If the Buddha wanted us to strive for Arahantship he would have said so. That's all that matters to me - what he said. What do you believe he said?
Metta,
Retro.
The way I see it, if the Buddha wanted us to strive for Buddhahood he would have said so. If the Buddha wanted us to strive for Arahantship he would have said so. That's all that matters to me - what he said. What do you believe he said?
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Aspiration, Vows and Choice
I keep pushing this work by Ledi Sayadaw, so again, study the first chapter, after the listing of the paramis and there are the many factors of vows & qualities needed for Solitary buddhahood, Arahanthood and Full buddhahood.
http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Ledi/Uttam ... onsDefined" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
There is a "cart before the horse" element, I think, in the Kid's view. It is not that one has to make the bodhisatta vow/aspiration (or any other noble vow) for the first time in front of a Buddha for the vow to become effective. After eons of so aspiring and working to become that bodhisatta, kammic effect would naturally lead one to appear before some Buddha. That Buddha would simply give assurance that you will be successful. If you are not ready yet, you would not appear before a Buddha.
http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Ledi/Uttam ... onsDefined" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
There is a "cart before the horse" element, I think, in the Kid's view. It is not that one has to make the bodhisatta vow/aspiration (or any other noble vow) for the first time in front of a Buddha for the vow to become effective. After eons of so aspiring and working to become that bodhisatta, kammic effect would naturally lead one to appear before some Buddha. That Buddha would simply give assurance that you will be successful. If you are not ready yet, you would not appear before a Buddha.
Good and evil have no fixed form. It's as easy to turn from doing bad to doing good as it is to flip over the hand from the back to the palm. It's simply up to us to do it. Master Hsuan Hua.
Re: Aspiration, Vows and Choice
Hi Retro.retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Dhammakid,
The way I see it, if the Buddha wanted us to strive for Buddhahood he would have said so. If the Buddha wanted us to strive for Arahantship he would have said so. That's all that matters to me - what he said. What do you believe he said?
Metta,
Retro.
Yes, you make a great point. Although, I'm a bit confused now...I guess the Buddha didn't teach us to strive for Buddhahood or Arahantship, right? Instead, he taught us to rid our suffering through the Path.
So what does this mean for the aspiration and vows? If the Buddha didn't teach it, how do we even know? I mean, obviously there are records of monks making the vow in front of a Buddha, as was mentioned in the women's thread...
Like I said before, it doesn't seem like the selection of individuals towards the Sammasambuddha path is random and mysterious. There's gotta be a reason why a certain individual becomes a Buddha.
Dhammakid
Re: Aspiration, Vows and Choice
Hi Will.Will wrote:I keep pushing this work by Ledi Sayadaw, so again, study the first chapter, after the listing of the paramis and there are the many factors of vows & qualities needed for Solitary buddhahood, Arahanthood and Full buddhahood.
http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Ledi/Uttam ... onsDefined" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
There is a "cart before the horse" element, I think, in the Kid's view. It is not that one has to make the bodhisatta vow/aspiration (or any other noble vow) for the first time in front of a Buddha for the vow to become effective. After eons of so aspiring and working to become that bodhisatta, kammic effect would naturally lead one to appear before some Buddha. That Buddha would simply give assurance that you will be successful. If you are not ready yet, you would not appear before a Buddha.
Thanks for the great link.
It seems to be describing how one attains the perfections, and the level of perfections attained determines what level of Buddhahood one reaches. But like I mentioned before, I've heard it said that one has no choice in the matter, because choice isn't found in the suttas in regard to this idea. So what should we believe?
And is it safe to assume many monks in the past have tried adhering to those guidelines and still have not attained the level of perfection they were aspiring to? Or is that impossible to know? I suspect the latter.
Dhammakid
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Re: Aspiration, Vows and Choice
.Dhammakid: I've heard it said that one has no choice in the matter, because choice isn't found in the suttas in regard to this idea
I missed your post where you gave the sutta passage about "choice". Nor am I clear what "choice" you are talking about? Please repeat a little.
Yes, it is safe to assume it takes a great deal of time, kalpas and more, to lay a solid foundation. But near the end it speeds up, thus the 7 lives to go Streamwinner; one more lifetime etc.
Good and evil have no fixed form. It's as easy to turn from doing bad to doing good as it is to flip over the hand from the back to the palm. It's simply up to us to do it. Master Hsuan Hua.
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Re: Aspiration, Vows and Choice
Greetings,
Metta,
Retro.
In the Pali Canon he teaches to strive for Arahantship, not Buddhahood.Dhammakid wrote:Although, I'm a bit confused now...I guess the Buddha didn't teach us to strive for Buddhahood or Arahantship, right?
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Aspiration, Vows and Choice
So Retro, when Ledi Sayadaw quotes some ancient Dhamma on Buddhahoood being a goal, he is using extra-canonical texts that have no authority - or just no authority with you?retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
In the Pali Canon he teaches to strive for Arahantship, not Buddhahood.Dhammakid wrote:Although, I'm a bit confused now...I guess the Buddha didn't teach us to strive for Buddhahood or Arahantship, right?
Metta,
Retro.
Good and evil have no fixed form. It's as easy to turn from doing bad to doing good as it is to flip over the hand from the back to the palm. It's simply up to us to do it. Master Hsuan Hua.