Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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smokey
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Post by smokey » Mon Jan 11, 2010 1:39 pm

catmoon wrote:Hiya Smokey! You still around?

I stumbled into an insight the other day. For a brief moment I saw the extent of my mental obscurations. I was like floating into the air on a foggy day, looking down at the ground, and seeing where the clear spots were. I could see that attachment to this idea or that was obscuring the truth about things. Sadly, not the kind of insight that will do anyone else much good.

Funny thing is, just knowing there is a barrier and it's nature, does not permit seeing through the barrier. You still have to take the barrier apart.

Oh, one thing that might be useful fell out of this. When one is unaware of obscurations, it appears that vision is completely unobstructed in all directions. So the fog analogy isn't a very good one.
Thank you, Catmoon :D

rowyourboat
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Post by rowyourboat » Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:58 pm

There are 4 steps to stream entry:
1) association with spiritual friends (read: a dhamma teacher who can teach you the path -inclusive of insight)
2) listening to the true dhamma (of an (semi)elightened being- discussing the components of reality. four noble truths)
3) appropriate contemplation (yonisomanasikara)
4) practice according to the dhamma

Some people find that their understanding is adequate to jump into numbe 4 without doing number 3. However if number 3 is not done some minght find that their vipassana is fruitless, in my experience. It only makes sense if you can start seeing phenomena in a 'differnt way' (to put it crudely) ie- with some degree of understanding of the dhamma. This is the way to start undermining mundane reality and start the process of true letting go. Seeing everything the same old way will not get us far.

The Buddha once said that it takes Right View and morality before one starts on the four foundations of mindfulness. Two factors which lead to right view are listening to others (paratoghoso) and appropriate contemplation (yonismanasikaro) This leads to insight born of meditation to arise. Otherwise it is just mindfulness and may lead to concentration states (useful, but limiting). What is requires is mindfulness with clear comprehension (sampajanna). Clear comprehension is helped by some degree of prior theoretical understanding (to know what aspect to be mindful of- namely arising and passing away, and of what components/aggregates).

Some may gain insight without step 3 if their faculty of wisdom is strong.

with metta

RYB
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

meindzai
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Post by meindzai » Mon Jan 11, 2010 11:00 pm

I wouldn't have stated it quite as the poster above, but I have found that most "Vipassana meditation" techniques did not do much for me either. I suspect it's that I just have such a lack of concentration to begin with, the vipassana is just too wobbly for me. Like the Buddha said: "Different strokes for Different folks!" Just kidding :tongue: Though I'm sure we can find something along those lines in the canon.

Anyway, there's plenty to be done just by working with concentration, and it is not devoid of insight.

-M

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christopher:::
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Post by christopher::: » Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:17 pm

In line with your "Different Strokes" observation, I sometimes feel that the various methods, approaches, schools and traditions are a bit like music... There is no one "best" way, and people are drawn to what works for them, and "feels right"....

ideally, what feels like home...

:anjali:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

PeterB
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Post by PeterB » Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:31 pm

I was a student of a very well known Vajrayana teacher who used to say " tell me when you feel comfortable in your practice, so I can change it straightaway." He meant it too.

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christopher:::
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Post by christopher::: » Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:32 am

Wasn't talking about feeling "comfortable" in the sense of not being challenged... just that people are drawn to what works for them, and feels right. But its a good point, if the Buddha recommended something, and we don't do it simply cause we "don't like" that approach, this could be a warning sign, to try again...
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

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Monkey Mind
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Post by Monkey Mind » Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:04 am

Apologies in advance for my ignorance. I am wondering about the experience of "bhango" that occurred on the Goenka retreat. For me it was a mind blowing experience that changed everything about how I practice, and how I conceive of the world and how I relate to it. Most other people on the retreat also experienced this "bhango", and stated that it also had a profound effect on them. Since then I have tried to find more information about this "bhango", and I come up empty handed. (Even know, as I Google it, my name is at the top of the list with a post from another forum....)

So was that an insight, a partial insight, the opening to insight, or none of the above? Goenkaji stated that many students return to the retreats to relive that experience, but that is not appropriate motivation as one should not become attached to it or crave it.
Last edited by Monkey Mind on Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
"As I am, so are others;
as others are, so am I."
Having thus identified self and others,
harm no one nor have them harmed.

Sutta Nipāta 3.710

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retrofuturist
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:11 am

Greetings Monkey Mind,
Monkey Mind wrote:Since then I have tried to find more information about this "bhango", and I come up empty handed.
I'm pretty sure it's actually bhanga, which supposedly means dissolving, and is experienced as subtle high-frequency vibration.

Well, that's what I've heard/felt anyway.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Monkey Mind
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Post by Monkey Mind » Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:22 am

Thank you. That word provides more hits when I search.
"As I am, so are others;
as others are, so am I."
Having thus identified self and others,
harm no one nor have them harmed.

Sutta Nipāta 3.710

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tiltbillings
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:52 am

bhanga
Isn't that something you smoke in order to get a divine buzz?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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zavk
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Post by zavk » Fri Feb 26, 2010 6:31 am

tiltbillings wrote:
bhanga
Isn't that something you smoke in order to get a divine buzz?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhang" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It appears it's usually a beverage.
With metta,
zavk

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tiltbillings
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Feb 26, 2010 6:53 am

Completely off-topic and a very bad example.
zavk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
bhanga
Isn't that something you smoke in order to get a divine buzz?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhang" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It appears it's usually a beverage.
Yes. You are quite correct. Another life time ago, my former significant-other's sister gave her a little baggie of locally grown wild cannabis. It sat in our kitchen for about a year or so. My former dear true (who proved to be so false) went off to some conference or other and being thoroughly bored, I decided to clean the kitchen and I found the long forgotten bag of weed, which I proceeded to throw away until I found an Indian cookbook that had a recipe for bhang. I fished out the pot, brewed up four cups of the stuff and drank one. Damn this stuff is crap, nothing is happening. I drank another, and I again came to the conclusion: damn this stuff is crap, nothing is happening. I'll try one more, and I started to feel a little buzz, at which I then drank the last cup. All this was in fairly short order. And then some fool pushed the express button to the top floor of the sixty story building in my head. I was so damned stoned so quickly I could not stand up, which I though was remarkably hilarious. I think I got unstoned sometime the next day, but I did not see god or anything. Just giggled and ate alot. Ah, the sixties.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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zavk
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Post by zavk » Fri Feb 26, 2010 7:02 am

Not born till the end of the next decade, but it sounds like my pre-Buddhist life (and I suspect others have experienced the same too). Well, aren't we all glad we found Buddhism? It's bhanga and not bhang for me now.


:smile:
With metta,
zavk

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tiltbillings
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Feb 26, 2010 7:07 am

zavk wrote:Not born till the end of the next decade, but it sounds like my pre-Buddhist life (and I suspect others have experienced the same too). Well, aren't we all glad we found Buddhism? It's bhanga and not bhang for me now.
bhanga. Is that a Goenka thing? I am not really famaliar with the term.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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zavk
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Post by zavk » Fri Feb 26, 2010 7:15 am

tiltbillings wrote:
zavk wrote:Not born till the end of the next decade, but it sounds like my pre-Buddhist life (and I suspect others have experienced the same too). Well, aren't we all glad we found Buddhism? It's bhanga and not bhang for me now.
bhanga. Is that a Goenka thing? I am not really famaliar with the term.

As far as I'm aware, yes. Haven't come across anyone who emphasizes it as much as he has.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el231.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There are ten levels of knowledge in Vipassana, namely:

.....

(iii) Bhanga: knowledge of the rapidly changing nature of Rupa and Nama as a swift current or stream of energy; in particular, clear awareness of the phase of dissolution.


Also discussed here as bhanga-ñana, knowledge of dissolution: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... html#ch6.5" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
With metta,
zavk

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