Sutta where the Buddha declares that everything is dependently originated?

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cappuccino
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Re: Sutta where the Buddha declares that everything is dependently originated?

Post by cappuccino »

DooDoot wrote: Upaya Sutta
He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'
Upaya Sutta

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DooDoot
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Re: Sutta where the Buddha declares that everything is dependently originated?

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cappuccino wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 5:19 am
He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'
Upaya Sutta
If "birth" is something "physical", there is a contradiction in the sutta, according to your interpretation.

But if "birth" means something mental, such as "identity", there is no contradiction.
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cappuccino
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Re: Sutta where the Buddha declares that everything is dependently originated?

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Everyone I encounter has a common quality.

They prefer a final, conclusive death.

Their philosophy is atheism, in agreement with their wish.

Somehow I think, it cannot end well.

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Re: Sutta where the Buddha declares that everything is dependently originated?

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The Buddha taught perception of impermanence ends well - Nibbana.
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chownah
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Re: Sutta where the Buddha declares that everything is dependently originated?

Post by chownah »

OK. I think I've overcome my disconnect in our discussion so far.

Having reread some posts and reread some suttas I think that you are saying that many things are conditioned in the way described in DO but some things are conditioned in some other way....for instance I think you are saying that the arahants sense spheres do not arise based on the effluent (fermentation) of ignorance so while they may be conditioned they are not conditioned by ignorance so they do not arise through DO. Is this what you are saying?
chownah

sentinel
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Re: Sutta where the Buddha declares that everything is dependently originated?

Post by sentinel »

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:31 pm
sentinel wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:23 pm
The sutta never say "pure undefiled" aggregates !
SN 22.48; SN 22.85; SN 22.53; Iti 44; etc :reading:
Where are the words pure undefiled ?


SN22.48

Any kind of form at all—past, future, or present; internal or external; coarse or fine; inferior or superior; far or near: this is called the aggregate of form.
Quality is not an act, it is a habit.

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Re: Sutta where the Buddha declares that everything is dependently originated?

Post by Pulsar »

Chownah wrote
Having reread some posts and reread some suttas I think that you are saying that many things are conditioned in the way described in DO but some things are conditioned in some other way....for instance I think you are saying that the arahants sense spheres do not arise based on the effluent (fermentation) of ignorance so while they may be conditioned they are not conditioned by ignorance so they do not arise through DO. Is this what you are saying?
I have not followed the thread closely, but I love the way you phrase the question, could not
help commenting. It is true that the arahant is disengaged from DO by not having any more kamma making volitional formations,
His consciousness is therefore very different from anything we can imagine. We who have limited minds, must not speculate about that aspect of it( Buddha said as much), it is like the blind men trying to describe the elephant.. a pointless activity.
Occasionally one finds a technical term for this in suttas. But let us leave that aside.
But here is the glitch... you wrote
that the arahants sense spheres do not arise based on the effluent
Sense sphere includes the eye, ear etc. These were already there before he became arahant, if he had weak eyesight before he became arahant, or poor hearing due to past kamma, those will remain so. So one can say that aspect still remains conditioned by past kamma.
This is something Buddha admitted, even the arahant is at the mercy of the body he/she brought into the world, which was based on past kamma, and to which he will remain linked to as long as he lives.
At expiration, his consciousness will not be relinked to another body.
Do I make sense? Let me stop before I get into any more hot water.
With love :candle:

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Re: Sutta where the Buddha declares that everything is dependently originated?

Post by SteRo »

chownah wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 1:31 pm
... I think that you are saying that many things are conditioned in the way described in DO but some things are conditioned in some other way....for instance I think you are saying that the arahants sense spheres do not arise based on the effluent (fermentation) of ignorance so while they may be conditioned they are not conditioned by ignorance so they do not arise through DO. Is this what you are saying?
I have understood that DooDoot want's to associate "dependently originated" ("paṭiccasamuppannā") exclusively with dukkha and apply "conditioned" ("sankhata") in all cases not related with dukkha.
DooDoot wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:59 am
I have offered the hypothesis that the word "conditioned" ("sankhata") does not necessarily have the same meaning as the term "dependently originated" ("paṭiccasamuppannā"). I have proposed:

* The pure undefiled five aggregates are "conditioned" ("sankhata") but are not "dependently originated" ("paṭiccasamuppannā").

* The five aggregates subject to clinging (upādānakkhandha) are conditioned" ("sankhata") & are also "dependently originated" ("paṭiccasamuppannā").

Part of his motivation seems to be dependently arisen from a misinterpretation of Nagarjuna's commentary on the Kaccānagotta Sutta (note: 'Nagarjuna' not 'Nargajuna' as DooDoot calls him):
DooDoot wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:49 am
...
In summary, imo, there are no suttas I can find to support Nargajuna's doctrine that all conditioned things are dependently originated. It appears Nargajuna's synonymous use of the words "saṅkhata" ("conditioned"), "dependently originated" ("paṭiccasamuppanna"), "paticcasummupada" ("dependent origination") & "idappaccayatā" ("conditionality") is not in accordance with how the Lord Buddha used these words.
DooDoot obviously is not aware of the use of "dependently arisen" as often used for "conditioned" ("sankhata") in the context of Nagarjuna's commentary that is not synonymous with "dependently originated" ("paṭiccasamuppannā"). It may however be that DooDoot knows Nagarjuna's commentary only from Mahayanists who use the expression "dependently originated" very carelessly since they themselves are not aware of the difference between "dependent arising" and "dependent origination".
The complicating thing is however that "dependently arisen" phenomena usually are ignorantly perceived by worldlings which then supports the process of "dependent origination" ("paṭiccasamuppannā"). The latter may be one reason for confusing "dependently arisen" and "dependently originated" in the context of Nagarjuna's commentary.
To the spheres of experience ("users") it may concern: When applying words no truth or reality is claimed. Language only knows the extremes of (+)-affirming experience ("is", "has", "does", etc.) and (-)-negating experience ("isn't", "hasn't", "doesn't", etc.) but it does not know the 'zero'-(0)-experience of non-apprehension. Therefore every linguistic expression might erroneously appear as claim though it is only a preliminary suggestion.

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Re: Sutta where the Buddha declares that everything is dependently originated?

Post by DooDoot »

SteRo wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:29 pm
DooDoot obviously is not aware of the use of "dependently arisen" as often used for "conditioned" ("sankhata") in the context of Nagarjuna's commentary that is not synonymous with "dependently originated" ("paṭiccasamuppannā"). It may however be that DooDoot knows Nagarjuna's commentary only from Mahayanists who use the expression "dependently originated" very carelessly since they themselves are not aware of the difference between "dependent arising" and "dependent origination".
Again, difficult to follow the above when it is posted without any references. For example, in Pali, "dependent arising" and "dependent origination" would mean exactly the same thing; given "arising" & "origination" are both common translations for the words "samudaya" and "uppāda".
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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chownah
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Re: Sutta where the Buddha declares that everything is dependently originated?

Post by chownah »

chownah wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 1:31 pm
OK. I think I've overcome my disconnect in our discussion so far.

Having reread some posts and reread some suttas I think that you are saying that many things are conditioned in the way described in DO but some things are conditioned in some other way....for instance I think you are saying that the arahants sense spheres do not arise based on the effluent (fermentation) of ignorance so while they may be conditioned they are not conditioned by ignorance so they do not arise through DO. Is this what you are saying?
chownah
Doodoot,
I'm hoping to get some response as to whether I am on the right track.....is this more or less what you are saying?

Also, I have tried to find sn12.81 as I am interested in "ignorant contact" but I have not been able to find it...can you bring a link?
chownah

SteRo
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Re: Sutta where the Buddha declares that everything is dependently originated?

Post by SteRo »

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:48 pm
SteRo wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:29 pm
DooDoot obviously is not aware of the use of "dependently arisen" as often used for "conditioned" ("sankhata") in the context of Nagarjuna's commentary that is not synonymous with "dependently originated" ("paṭiccasamuppannā"). It may however be that DooDoot knows Nagarjuna's commentary only from Mahayanists who use the expression "dependently originated" very carelessly since they themselves are not aware of the difference between "dependent arising" and "dependent origination".
Again, difficult to follow the above when it is posted without any references. For example, in Pali, "dependent arising" and "dependent origination" would mean exactly the same thing; given "arising" & "origination" are both common translations for the words "samudaya" and "uppāda".
Nagarjuna's commentary is in sanskrit not pali but I do neither understand sanskrit nor pali, so I have to rely on the expertise of English translators. And if these use "dependent arising" in some contexts but "dependent origination" in other contexts and the two contexts can be identified then I have no need for sanskrit or pali.
To the spheres of experience ("users") it may concern: When applying words no truth or reality is claimed. Language only knows the extremes of (+)-affirming experience ("is", "has", "does", etc.) and (-)-negating experience ("isn't", "hasn't", "doesn't", etc.) but it does not know the 'zero'-(0)-experience of non-apprehension. Therefore every linguistic expression might erroneously appear as claim though it is only a preliminary suggestion.

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Re: Sutta where the Buddha declares that everything is dependently originated?

Post by DooDoot »

SteRo wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 7:51 am
Nagarjuna's commentary is in sanskrit not pali but I do neither understand sanskrit nor pali, so I have to rely on the expertise of English translators. And if these use "dependent arising" in some contexts but "dependent origination" in other contexts and the two contexts can be identified then I have no need for sanskrit or pali.
Simply post the Sanskrit. Thanks :thanks:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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SteRo
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Re: Sutta where the Buddha declares that everything is dependently originated?

Post by SteRo »

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 9:07 am
SteRo wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 7:51 am
Nagarjuna's commentary is in sanskrit not pali but I do neither understand sanskrit nor pali, so I have to rely on the expertise of English translators. And if these use "dependent arising" in some contexts but "dependent origination" in other contexts and the two contexts can be identified then I have no need for sanskrit or pali.
Simply post the Sanskrit. Thanks :thanks:
viewtopic.php?p=536688#p536688

But attention this author uses English "dependent arising" for paticcasamuppada !

So it is best you focus on the sanskrit verses exclusively to check whether these contain the fault of confusing what you called "conditioned" ("sankhata") with "dependently originated" ("paṭiccasamuppannā"). After all we want to assess Nagarjuna's view not any view of any of his translators or commentators!

BTW you are using paṭiccasamuppannā in contrast to paticcasamuppada. What is the difference between paṭiccasamuppannā and paticcasamuppada?
To the spheres of experience ("users") it may concern: When applying words no truth or reality is claimed. Language only knows the extremes of (+)-affirming experience ("is", "has", "does", etc.) and (-)-negating experience ("isn't", "hasn't", "doesn't", etc.) but it does not know the 'zero'-(0)-experience of non-apprehension. Therefore every linguistic expression might erroneously appear as claim though it is only a preliminary suggestion.

chownah
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Re: Sutta where the Buddha declares that everything is dependently originated?

Post by chownah »

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 3:11 am
For example, in SN 12.81, the literal word compound: "ignorant-contact" is used. This appears to shows "contact" in D.O. always refers to a contact tainted by ignorance.

For example, suttas such as Iti 44 say Arahants, who are free from ignorance, still experience sense contact.
I'm still trying to find sn12.81 where it uses the term "ignorant-contact". Can you provide a link as I am very interested in seeing the use of that word compound?
chownah

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Re: Sutta where the Buddha declares that everything is dependently originated?

Post by DooDoot »

chownah wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 2:03 pm
I'm still trying to find sn12.81 where it uses the term "ignorant-contact".
Sorry. Its SN 22.81
When an uneducated ordinary person is struck by feelings born of contact with ignorance, craving arises.

Avijjāsamphassajena, bhikkhave, vedayitena phuṭṭhassa assutavato puthujjanassa uppannā taṇhā;

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.81/en/sujato
:alien:
SteRo wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:29 am
BTW you are using paṭiccasamuppannā in contrast to paticcasamuppada. What is the difference between paṭiccasamuppannā and paticcasamuppada?
paṭiccasamuppannā is an adjective. paticcasamuppada is a noun. For example, as originally posted:
MN 28 wrote:“One who sees dependent origination sees the teaching.
“yo paṭiccasamuppādaṃ passati so dhammaṃ passati;

One who sees the teaching sees dependent origination.”
yo dhammaṃ passati so paṭiccasamuppādaṃ passatī”ti.

And these five grasping aggregates are indeed dependently originated.
Paṭiccasamuppannā kho panime yadidaṃ pañcupādānakkhandhā.

https://suttacentral.net/mn28/en/sujato
SN 12.20 wrote:And what are the dependently originated phenomena?

Katame ca, bhikkhave, paṭiccasamuppannā dhammā?

Old age and death are impermanent, conditioned, dependently originated, liable to end, vanish, fade away, and cease.

Jarāmaraṇaṃ, bhikkhave, aniccaṃ saṅkhataṃ paṭiccasamuppannaṃ khayadhammaṃ vayadhammaṃ virāgadhammaṃ nirodhadhammaṃ.

Rebirth …

Jāti, bhikkhave, aniccā saṅkhatā paṭiccasamuppannā khayadhammā vayadhammā virāgadhammā nirodhadhammā.

Continued existence …

Bhavo, bhikkhave, anicco saṅkhato paṭiccasamuppanno khayadhammo vayadhammo virāgadhammo nirodhadhammo.
Grasping …

Upādānaṃ bhikkhave … pe …

Craving …

taṇhā, bhikkhave …

Feeling …

vedanā, bhikkhave …

Contact …

phasso, bhikkhave …

The six sense fields …

saḷāyatanaṃ, bhikkhave …

Name and form …

nāmarūpaṃ, bhikkhave …

Consciousness …

viññāṇaṃ, bhikkhave …

Choices [Formations] …

saṅkhārā, bhikkhave …

Ignorance is impermanent, conditioned, dependently originated, liable to end, vanish, fade away, and cease.

avijjā, bhikkhave, aniccā saṅkhatā paṭiccasamuppannā khayadhammā vayadhammā virāgadhammā nirodhadhammā.
These are called the dependently originated phenomena.

Ime vuccanti, bhikkhave, paṭiccasamuppannā dhammā.

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.20/en/sujato
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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