Sutta where the Buddha declares that everything is dependently originated?

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DooDoot
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Re: Sutta where the Buddha declares that everything is dependently originated?

Post by DooDoot »

form wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:06 am
He said that five aggregates are conditioned.
I have offered the hypothesis that the word "conditioned" ("sankhata") does not necessarily have the same meaning as the term "dependently originated" ("paṭiccasamuppannā"). I have proposed:

* The pure undefiled five aggregates are "conditioned" ("sankhata") but are not "dependently originated" ("paṭiccasamuppannā").

* The five aggregates subject to clinging (upādānakkhandha) are conditioned" ("sankhata") & are also "dependently originated" ("paṭiccasamuppannā").
SN 12.48 wrote: Sāvatthinidānaṃ. Pañca, bhikkhave, khandhe desessāmi, pañcupādānakkhandhe ca. Taṃ suṇātha.

At Savatthi. “Bhikkhus, I will teach you the five aggregates and the five aggregates subject to clinging. Listen to that….

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.48/en/bodhi
:popcorn:
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form
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Re: Sutta where the Buddha declares that everything is dependently originated?

Post by form »

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:59 am
form wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:06 am
He said that five aggregates are conditioned.
I have offered the hypothesis that the word "conditioned" ("sankhata") does not necessarily have the same meaning as the term "dependently originated" ("paṭiccasamuppannā"). I have proposed:

* The pure undefiled five aggregates are "conditioned" ("sankhata") but are not "dependently originated" ("paṭiccasamuppannā").

* The five aggregates subject to clinging (upādānakkhandha) are conditioned" ("sankhata") & are also "dependently originated" ("paṭiccasamuppannā").
SN 12.48 wrote: Sāvatthinidānaṃ. Pañca, bhikkhave, khandhe desessāmi, pañcupādānakkhandhe ca. Taṃ suṇātha.

At Savatthi. “Bhikkhus, I will teach you the five aggregates and the five aggregates subject to clinging. Listen to that….

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.48/en/bodhi
:popcorn:
I take it as both terms are synonymous. I can't imagine that they are different.

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DooDoot
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Re: Sutta where the Buddha declares that everything is dependently originated?

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form wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:43 am
I take it as both terms are synonymous. I can't imagine that they are different.
Like (synonymous with) Nargajuna. :smile:
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chownah
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Re: Sutta where the Buddha declares that everything is dependently originated?

Post by chownah »

SteRo wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:45 am
chownah wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:38 am
SteRo wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 12:42 pm
But even the arahant has six sense media ... at least according to worldly measures of observation.
I think the suttas point out a pretty clear equivalency of "worldly" and "ignorance" so I paraphrase this to show more clearly my view of how this happens:
"But even the arahant has six sense media ... at least according to measures of observers in which ignorance has arisen."
chownah
You don't seem to have gotten my words appropriately
Ignorance is abandoned by the arahant exclusively and only partially by the other ariyas
If "worldly" and "ignorance" would be equivalent then a sotapanna would be a worldling. Why? A sotapanna has not abandoned ignorance yet.
Take a look at Iti 44.....it seems to support what you are saying.
chownah

form
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Re: Sutta where the Buddha declares that everything is dependently originated?

Post by form »

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:37 am
form wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:43 am
I take it as both terms are synonymous. I can't imagine that they are different.
Like (synonymous with) Nargajuna. :smile:
Dun laugh at me like this. I really cannot tell them apart.

chownah
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Re: Sutta where the Buddha declares that everything is dependently originated?

Post by chownah »

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:48 am

It is best to not use a vague text to refute an explicit text. SN 12.44 is an explicit text that says the world ends when craving ends. Ud 1.2 is a vague text that appears to say when ignorance ends, ignorant sense spheres end. Ud 1.2 does not appear to say all sense spheres end but only those sense spheres arising from ignorance. I can support this point of view with many texts, such as Iti 44. Iti 44 clearly says an Arahant has sense spheres. Regards :smile:
I don't know what you mean by "a vague text" but I think it means that you want to discard what it says because it tends to go against what you are saying but you can't think of a good reason to discard it.

You seem to think that ud1.2 gives some qualification as to which sense spheres end....I don't see that it contains any qualifications and what it says can then be taken as a blanket statement....or perhaps they forgot to put the qualification in....or perhaps it is there and I simply have missed it. Unless you can show me where this qualification is expressed (the actual words, not an implication) then I will take this qualification to be your contrual.

Iti 44 is an interesting sutta....I'll take a look at it and probably post when I organize my thoughts about the connnection I see it has (if any) to our discussion.
chownah

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DooDoot
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Re: Sutta where the Buddha declares that everything is dependently originated?

Post by DooDoot »

chownah wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:36 am
I don't know what you mean by "a vague text...
It is a vague text because it is subject to interpretation and particularly your misinterpretation. There are many texts that refute your interpretation.
form wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:19 am
Dun laugh at me like this. I really cannot tell them apart.
My theory is:

1. The body is "conditoned" ("sankhata") because it is made up of the conditions of earth, wind. fire, water & space.

2. The body is "dependently originated" when it is infected with ignorance and is considered to be "my body", "his body", "her body", etc.

Regards
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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sentinel
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Re: Sutta where the Buddha declares that everything is dependently originated?

Post by sentinel »

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:59 am

I have offered the hypothesis that the word "conditioned" ("sankhata") does not necessarily have the same meaning as the term "dependently originated" ("paṭiccasamuppannā"). I have proposed:

* The pure undefiled five aggregates are "conditioned" ("sankhata") but are not "dependently originated" ("paṭiccasamuppannā").
Hypothesis are not the truth unless proven .
The sutta never say "pure undefiled" aggregates !
Quality is not an act, it is a habit.

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DooDoot
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Re: Sutta where the Buddha declares that everything is dependently originated?

Post by DooDoot »

sentinel wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:23 pm
The sutta never say "pure undefiled" aggregates !
SN 22.48; SN 22.85; SN 22.53; Iti 44; etc :reading:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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form
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Re: Sutta where the Buddha declares that everything is dependently originated?

Post by form »

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:09 pm
chownah wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:36 am
I don't know what you mean by "a vague text...
It is a vague text because it is subject to interpretation and particularly your misinterpretation. There are many texts that refute your interpretation.
form wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:19 am
Dun laugh at me like this. I really cannot tell them apart.
My theory is:

1. The body is "conditoned" ("sankhata") because it is made up of the conditions of earth, wind. fire, water & space.

2. The body is "dependently originated" when it is infected with ignorance and is considered to be "my body", "his body", "her body", etc.

Regards
Physical and mental body.

Modern way of saying will be physiology and psychology.

chownah
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Re: Sutta where the Buddha declares that everything is dependently originated?

Post by chownah »

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:09 pm
chownah wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:36 am
I don't know what you mean by "a vague text...
It is a vague text because it is subject to interpretation and particularly your misinterpretation. There are many texts that refute your interpretation.
I would really like to see them as I am always wanting to learn more about the suttas and if there are many texts which indicat that I am misinterpreting something I am always glad to see them.....can you bring a few?

If a text is subject to interpretation then I think that all texts are vague.

chownah

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DooDoot
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Re: Sutta where the Buddha declares that everything is dependently originated?

Post by DooDoot »

chownah wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:20 am
If a text is subject to interpretation then I think that all texts are vague.
The point i was making is what has been discussed & debated many times, namely:

* Does cessation of consciousness in the standard 12-fold formula mean the literal cessation of consciousness? :shrug:

Since there are more detailed suttas (eg. SN 22.53) that refer to the cessation of ignorance or craving controlling consciousness, it seems more clear the phrase "consciousness ceases" in D.O. means the cessation of an ignorant consciousness rather than the cessation of all consciousness.

Since paticcasummupada means "depedent-co-arising", it has been argued all 12 conditions must co-arise together and each condition must include ignorance (the 1st condition) within it.

For example, in SN 12.81, the literal word compound: "ignorant-contact" is used. This appears to shows "contact" in D.O. always refers to a contact tainted by ignorance.

For example, suttas such as Iti 44 say Arahants, who are free from ignorance, still experience sense contact.

Regards :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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form
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Re: Sutta where the Buddha declares that everything is dependently originated?

Post by form »

What kind of consciousness is the Buddha talking about when he assure Ananda that there is consciousness after attaining Nibanna?

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Re: Sutta where the Buddha declares that everything is dependently originated?

Post by cappuccino »

form wrote: What kind of consciousness is the Buddha talking about when he assure Ananda that there is consciousness after attaining Nibanna?
Consciousness without feature,
without end,
luminous all around
That is what the Blessed One said.

Kevatta Sutta

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DooDoot
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Re: Sutta where the Buddha declares that everything is dependently originated?

Post by DooDoot »

form wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 4:14 am
What kind of consciousness is the Buddha talking about when he assure Ananda that there is consciousness after attaining Nibanna?
If a monk abandons passion for the property of consciousness, then owing to the abandonment of passion, the support is cut off, and there is no landing of consciousness. Consciousness, thus not having landed, not increasing, not concocting, is released. Owing to its release, it is steady. Owing to its steadiness, it is contented. Owing to its contentment, it is not agitated. Not agitated, he (the monk) is totally unbound right within.
That is what the Blessed One said.

Upaya Sutta
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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