Breath

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
PeterB
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Re: Breath

Post by PeterB »

The deep effort might be part of the problem here Collective. You need to take your time. As I understand it you have only been practising this for a couple of weeks. It takes many people months before they see any result. Buddhist meditation is not a quick solution, it unfolds in its own time depending on a number of factors.
Also , I dont want to keep raising an issue that might present practical problems, but, there is no substitute for hands on instruction. It can make a huge difference .

Rereading your post it also occurs to me that this might not be good time in your life for you to attempt formal meditation of any kind. meditation is not a cure for clinical anxiety. Even in those who have no underlying clinical anxiety, meditation can raise anxiety levels initially as we become aware of all sorts of stuff that we normally are not conscious of.It may be that you have to have help in managing your anxiety levels first and return to formal meditation later. In the meantime you can study, walk, observe Sila,practice Metta Bhavana, and attempt to do everyday things with mindfulness.
Last edited by PeterB on Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
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salmon
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Re: Breath

Post by salmon »

Collective wrote:Then I have a real problem.
If you have an issue with the meditation anchor, change the anchor. Breath too subtle for you to be aware but mind states are not? Then use the mind state as your anchor. Watch as your mind states drift from being restless to calm to agitated and back to calm again.

And don't be too anxious for results. Sometimes, anxiety is the very reason why you seem to end up without progress. Only when you stop expecting results, can you really get any.

Good luck.
~ swimming upstream is tough work! ~
PeterB
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Re: Breath

Post by PeterB »

You do not need disclose here, but one suggestion is to get any medication that you are on ( I am not assuming that you are ) reviewed.
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Collective
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Re: Breath

Post by Collective »

But if I shouldn't meditate right now because of my anxiety I'll never meditate because I've always been an anxious person, ever since I was a young lad. I've also been meditating now for about 7 to 8 months, and I have read a good bit about it as well. It's just that I realised this morning that my location of the breath is impossible, or seeminlgy impossible to locate. I find my self skipping from nostrils, to chest, to abdomen, to nostrils.

To be fair though, I sat again for another 20 minutes, and this time I simply closed my eyes and this helped me a little bit. It was better, not ideal, but I think this definitely may be the way to go. Eyes shut, it focused my awareness like a lens, and it limited distractions. Also, and this is important, when I say I inject a good deal of effort in my focusing, I dont mean to say I'm sat there brows knitted, sweat pouring down my face - I mean to say I'm applying the right effort, a real focus on the breath. Again, using the lens analogy it all focuses to a point on my breathing.

Perhaps I should be mediating to relax, to obtain the jhanas and not any insight meditation. Perhaps I need to focus on just getting relaxed, before I start looking to insights. This makes more sense to me.

Primarily, I need to relax, I've tried both, and I definitely get more results from the blissful states. I come off the cushion feeling relaxed. And that is what I need in my life right now. It's something I've always needed.

EDIT: Please, could someone recommend a book that focuses on relaxation meditstion, namely reaching the jhana states? Thank you very much :namaste:
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Ben
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Re: Breath

Post by Ben »

Hi Collective

I just want to build on what PeterB has said.
Firstly, relax!
Your experience of losing the sensation of the breath, losing all sensation, of getting frustrated, feeling worse - its so common.
It happens to me every time I do a retreat, and I've been doing them for 24 years. It takes time to develop the perception of breath. And if you are clinging to this or that desired outcome, no matter how sublte the attachment, it becomes a barrier for attaining that particular outcome. I know from personal experience. Your awareness needs to a relaxed awareness. Within the Visuddhimagga, within the section of anapanasati, the instruction is that one places the awareness on the breath. If we start with an iron-fist like grip on the breath, our mind will lack the subtlety and supleness to follow the sensation of the breath as it gradually becomes more and more subtle. And if you contine to loose the breath as it becomes subtle - don't worry about it. It happens to everyone. As I said earlier, you can re-orient yoursself by making a few hard "forced" breaths before returning to the natural rhythm. Another way to re-orient yourself is to hold your breath for about ten or twenty seconds and observe the area where you normally perceive the sensation of breath.
I recommend that you persevere. You;ve only been doing it for a few weeks from audio and print instructions in the absence of a teacher. If you continue, you will find that your practice will be the ultimate "relaxation" meditation as you develop samadhi and begin the process of eradicating the defilements at the root of the mind.
Take care Collective and i wish you the very best with your practice!
metta

Ben
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Collective
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Re: Breath

Post by Collective »

Tyanks for the insight Ben, I appreciate it. I have to point out though, that although I had the meditation kit a few weeks ago, I've actually been mediating for about 7 to 8 months now, and I've read a quite a bit about it too, with authors such as Gunaratana, and Hagen.

I'm aware iof all the pitfalls etc, It's just this morning I realised "what breath!?"

I think insight is the wrong path for me right now. Maybe the jhanas.
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Ben
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Re: Breath

Post by Ben »

No problem Collective.
My post is also relevant for the samatha variant of anapanasati. But from the tone of your last post it looks like you are looking at changing your technique to something non-breath related.
Whatever you choose to do, all the best!
metta

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
PeterB
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Re: Breath

Post by PeterB »

Collective I have been meditating for slightly more than 40 years and sometimes life events and so on mean that it takes me quite a while to settle on the cushion, sometimes 15 or 20 minutes before I am with the breath fully. At other times its almost instant.
Reciting the Refuges can help. If you make a habit of that it tells your mind that it is meditation time. meditating at the same time of day can also help, just as your stomache rumbles at lunchtime, your mind will get used to the routine.
Its a middle way, Right Effort is important, but so is the old saying " meditate as you can, not as you cant",
Just to add my good wishes to Ben's.
Freawaru
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Re: Breath

Post by Freawaru »

Collective wrote:
I think insight is the wrong path for me right now. Maybe the jhanas.
Hi Collective,
Leigh Brasington wrote: How do you know access concentration has been established? The mind is fully with the object of meditation and, if there are any thoughts, they are wispy and in the background; they do not draw you away from the meditation object. There may also be other signs -- which vary for each method. For mindfulness of breathing, the breath becomes very fine, almost undetectable when you have established access concentration.

First Jhana

Once access concentration has been established, you now induce the next factor of the first Jhana. This third factor is called piti and is variously translated as delight, euphoria, rapture and ecstasy. By shifting your attention from the meditation object to a pleasant sensation, particularly a pleasant physical sensation, and doing nothing more than not becoming distracted from the pleasant sensation, you will "automatically" enter the first Jhana. The experience is that the pleasant sensation grows in intensity until it explodes into an unmistakable state of ecstasy. This is piti, which is primarily a physical experience. Physical pleasure this intense is accompanied by emotional pleasure, and this emotional pleasure is sukha (joy, happiness), which is the fourth factor of the first Jhana.
http://www.leighb.com/jhana2a.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Collective
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Re: Breath

Post by Collective »

After reading all the posts here it seems to me that no matter what my aim is, I'll still be using the breath as a focus. Incidentally I don't want to stop using the breath, as it is right there with me, it's accessible, and everyone recommends it.

It may seem rash of me to stop reading my Insight Meditation kit after purchasing it about 2 weeks ago, but it isn't as if I have no prior experience with vipassana. However, I have little to no experience or knowledge with jhana. I think jhana is the manifestation of the meditation and not the meditational technique itself (told you I know little).

Could someone recommend a book that introduces this type of meditation, cultivating jhana?

Thank you
PeterB
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Re: Breath

Post by PeterB »

If anyone does, will it really help Collective, or might it send you into another struggle ?
If every time we plant seeds we dig them up to see how they are doing, or tug the little shoots to make them grow, or decide to plant something else in the same plot, we wont have much of a garden.
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Collective
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Re: Breath

Post by Collective »

PeterB wrote:If anyone does, will it really help Collective, or might it send you into another struggle ?
If every time we plant seeds we dig them up to see how they are doing, or tug the little shoots to make them grow, or decide to plant something else in the same plot, we wont have much of a garden.
True, good example. But the actual technique, the breathing, that won't change (that's the irony here), just my aim. I feel I need to relax more than gain insight.
Moggalana
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Re: Breath

Post by Moggalana »

Collective wrote: Could someone recommend a book that introduces this type of meditation, cultivating jhana?
  • Ajahn Brahm - Mindfulness, Bliss, and Beyond: A Meditator's Handbook (read the first five chapters online, Samadhi Retreat recording)
    Shaila Catherine - Focused and Fearless: A Meditator's Guide to States of Deep Joy, Calm, and Clarity
    Bhante Gunaratana - Beyond Mindfulness in Plain English: An Introductory guide to Deeper States of Meditation
    Stephen Snyder, Tina Rasmussen - Practicing the Jhanas: Traditional Concentration Meditation as Presented by the Venerable Pa Auk Sayadaw (Audio Talks)
Personally, I would recommend the first two, the third is not bad either, the fourth I don't know.
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Kenshou
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Re: Breath

Post by Kenshou »

Perhaps Collective is the sort of person who, in the old days, would be recommended to start out with kasina practice.

Edit: There's a short bit from Focused & Fearless which I think might be relevant:

"The first formal instruction I received for jhana practice surprised me. My teacher told me to meditate in any way that supported the development of three qualities: mental brightness, spaciousness, and relaxation. I had expected the early instructions to emphasize vigorous focus on a narrow object. It soon became clear, however, that demanding effort can create tension; in the wake of tension, aversion and the hindrances thrive. Conversely, a mind that is relaxed, bright, and spacious contributes to mental and physical ease and encourages a natural release into present-moment experience."

Why not try that out? Also, I believe Ajahn Brahm's view is that it isn't terribly important exactly where the breath is watched, so you would probably do no harm just trying to calmly watch the entire breathing process and not get too worked up over any one particular thing. I wouldn't be surprised if doing just these things would be enough to make some steps toward samadhi. There's more than one way of going about things.
Moggalana
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Re: Breath

Post by Moggalana »

Kenshou wrote: Also, I believe Ajahn Brahm's view is that it isn't terribly important exactly where the breath is watched, so you would probably do no harm just trying to calmly watch the entire breathing process and not get too worked up over any one particular thing. I wouldn't be surprised if doing just these things would be enough to make some steps toward samadhi. There's more than one way of going about things.
Indeed.
Ajahn Brahm wrote: When you focus on the breath, you focus on the experience of the breath happening now. You experience `that which tells you what the breath is doing', whether it is going in or out or in between. Some teachers say to watch the breath at the tip of the nose, some say to watch it at the abdomen and some say to move it here and then move it there. I have found through experience that it does not matter where you watch the breath. In fact it is best not to locate the breath anywhere! If you locate the breath at the tip of your nose then it becomes nose awareness, not breath awareness, and if you locate it at your abdomen then it becomes abdomen awareness. Just ask yourself the question right now, "Am I breathing in or am I breathing out?" How do you know? There! That experience which tells you what the breath is doing, that is what you focus on in breath meditation. Let go of concern about where this experience is located; just focus on the experience itself.
There are many ways. Whatever works :)
Let it come. Let it be. Let it go.
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