The four noble truths - and craving.

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Reductor
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Re: The four noble truths - and craving.

Post by Reductor »

vinasp wrote: This may explain why one cannot say exactly what bhava tanha is, it covers a range of things.

Best wishes, Vincent.
I think that may be the case, yes.

As for 'view craving', I have not read anything in the cannon itself (yet) which references that exact phrase or concept. There is 'clinging to views' as one of the four forms of clinging... but what is a 'view'? It is a class of mental object comprised of the usual suspects: perception, thought and feeling - with form and consciousness acting as support. So at the time that a view is present, it is itself an element of the being as it currently is.

So I would think that clinging to a view is just clinging of the usual sort to phenomenon in general, whereas the content, if you phrase it such, of that phenomenon is concerned with an eternal self or a non-eternal self. Which is why a person can point to the 'clinging of views' but not so much to 'craving of views' -- a view once it is formed is something that can be clung to, but until it is formed it is comprised of more indiscreet mental activity that is being compelled by the more basic cravings of becoming and non-becoming.

These are my thoughts at this time, but I admit that I am neither scholar of the cannon nor an intellectual. It is entirely possible that I am mistaken in every way.
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Re: The four noble truths - and craving.

Post by Reductor »

nschauer wrote:So my comment may fall under the 'duh' category but maybe you all can teach me something.
My understanding is the first noble truth is that there is suffering - Ive always heard it that way. I understand the source of suffering is craving but the statement that "there is suffering" is different from "there is craving".
It might seem so, but that is not the case. There is existence, which is a big narly process which is impersonal and very hard to direct with complete (or even a little) mastery. The reason that suffering exists is that we crave for this existence to be one way or another, or to stay the same, and for it to yield only those things that we desire, and not those thing we desire not to exist. Unfortunately it is impossible for existence to be under our mastery and to yield only that which we find desirable.

So when you undercut craving, the suffering that comes from existence is also cut off, and so there is no suffering although such a person who has accomplished this might continue to live. However, the cutting off of craving also cuts off the process that makes for further rebirth after death, and issues in nibbana...

When we talk of sensual craving we talk about craving for things outside our being to be one way or another. When we talk of the other two cravings, that is talk of how we want our being to be.
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Re: The four noble truths - and craving.

Post by vinasp »

Hi thereductor,

A view-craving is described in AN ii 10 (Yokes), and in several other discourses.

"And how is there the yoke of views? There is the case where a certain person does not discern, as it actually is present, the origination, the passing away, the allure, the drawbacks, & the escape from views. When he does not discern, as it actually is present, the origination, the passing away, the allure, the drawbacks, & the escape from views, then — with regard to views — he is obsessed with view-passion, view-delight, view-attraction, view-infatuation, view-thirst, view-fever, view-fascination, view-craving."

It is not clear if this should be understood as a craving for views, or only a craving 'associated' with views. There is, of course, dhamma-tanha found in later discourses, what it is, exactly, is not clear to me at present. Can there be clinging to views without a craving for views?

Best wishes, Vincent.
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Re: The four noble truths - and craving.

Post by PeterB »

Vinasp can I answer by posing a question. What in your view is the purpose of the Dhamma ?
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Re: The four noble truths - and craving.

Post by acinteyyo »

vinasp wrote:When you speak of a "craving for eternal existence" (of a self), do you mean a craving for the view of an eternally existing self?
Is a "craving for eternal existence" (of a self) a craving for actual existence, or only a craving for a view of "the eternal existence of a self"?
Is not any craving to be, just craving for an idea, a view? What do you think?
The puthujjana craves for actual existence of an illusory self. The puthujjana can't see the contradiction (the illusory self cannot exist, what can exist is just the illusion itself) because the puthujjana takes for granted what appears to him as his true self. Would the puthujjana see it, he wouldn't crave for existence, he wouldn't crave for being, he wouldn't wish to be in essence. By the way, he wouldn't crave for non-existence neither, if he could understand anatta. In fact the puthujjana's inability to see anatta is a reason why he's still a puthujjana.
I guess we could also say it is craving for an idea. For an idea based on personality-view, based on the belief in a self.

best wishes, acinteyyo
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.
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Re: The four noble truths - and craving.

Post by vinasp »

Hi acinteyyo,
acinteyyo wrote:The puthujjana craves for actual existence of an illusory self. The puthujjana can't see the contradiction (the illusory self cannot exist, what can exist is just the illusion itself) because the puthujjana takes for granted what appears to him as his true self. Would the puthujjana see it, he wouldn't crave for existence, he wouldn't crave for being, he wouldn't wish to be in essence. By the way, he wouldn't crave for non-existence neither, if he could understand anatta. In fact the puthujjana's inability to see anatta is a reason why he's still a puthujjana.
I guess we could also say it is craving for an idea. For an idea based on personality-view, based on the belief in a self.
An excellent description! The best post yet on this thread.

Best wishes, Vincent.
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Re: The four noble truths - and craving.

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

On the question of whether or not there is a craving which is the cause of every wrong view of self, the Parileyya Sutta is interesting:

"That eternalist view is a formation. That formation what is its source, what is its origin, from what is it born and produced? When the uninstructed worldling is contacted by a feeling born of ignorance-contact, craving arises : thence that
formation is born."
"Thus, bhikkhus, that formation is impermanent, conditioned, dependently arisen; that craving is impermanent, conditioned, dependently arisen; that feeling is impermanent, conditioned, dependently arisen; that contact is impermanent, conditioned, dependently arisen; that ignorance is impermanent, conditioned, dependently arisen. When one knows and sees thus, bhikkhus, the immediate destruction of the asavas occurs."

Connected Discourses, Bhikkhu Bodhi, page 922. [ SN 22. 81] Parileyya Sutta.

Best wishes, Vincent.
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Re: The four noble truths - and craving.

Post by vinasp »

Hi acinteyyo,

acinteyyo : "The puthujjana craves for actual existence of an illusory self."

* 'Actual' from his POV, illusory from ours.
* 'illusory' from our POV, actual from his.

So from our POV he craves for the illusory existence of an illusory self.
From his POV he craves for the actual existence of an actual self.

What is this 'illusory self' ? - It can only be a 'view of an existing self'.
He takes this 'view of an existing self' to be 'a really existing self'.
So by perpetuating this view he 'continues in real existence' (from his POV).
Bhava tanha (existence-craving) is what produces bhava ditthi (existence-view).

Best wishes, Vincent.
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Re: The four noble truths - and craving.

Post by ground »

If we concede the self being the object designated depending on phenomena of experience ("aggregates") then the "self" is illusory or existent to the same extent a "car" is illusory or existent because "car" is the object designated depending on its parts wheels, roof, seats, etc. (and all these parts being matter can further be devided into smaller parts without there being a limit of divisability) but it does not really exist.
So if "car" has some sort of existence the "self" has too and if "self" is said to be completely non-existent the same must be said of "car" which would be rather non-conventional.
So the "kind of truth" of existence asserted seems to be crucial.

In a similar context the view of the "four noble truths" can be an instance of craving for views if it is invested with "real" inherent truth as if it existed from its own side indepedent of the subject holding this view due to causes and conditions.
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Re: The four noble truths - and craving.

Post by acinteyyo »

vinasp wrote:
acinteyyo wrote:"The puthujjana craves for actual existence of an illusory self."
* 'Actual' from his POV, illusory from ours.
* 'illusory' from our POV, actual from his.

So from our POV he craves for the illusory existence of an illusory self.
From his POV he craves for the actual existence of an actual self.
exactly
vinasp wrote:What is this 'illusory self' ? - It can only be a 'view of an existing self'.
He takes this 'view of an existing self' to be 'a really existing self'.
So by perpetuating this view he 'continues in real existence' (from his POV).
Bhava tanha (existence-craving) is what produces bhava ditthi (existence-view).
I don't know what this "illusory self" is. I think it can be everything, whatever the puthujjana takes for the "self". But I'm sure it is at least one or more of the five aggregates and the puthujjana is constantly changing the object which he takes for the "self" every time if necessary, so that this permanent "self", which he thinks he is (because he believes that there is such a self - attavada), continues to appear as the assumed permanent "self" in which he believes in. This act of switching the object depends on attavada.
TMingyur wrote:If we concede the self being the object designated depending on phenomena of experience ("aggregates") then the "self" is illusory or existent to the same extent a "car" is illusory or existent because "car" is the object designated depending on its parts wheels, roof, seats, etc. (and all these parts being matter can further be devided into smaller parts without there being a limit of divisability) but it does not really exist.
So if "car" has some sort of existence the "self" has too and if "self" is said to be completely non-existent the same must be said of "car" which would be rather non-conventional.
So the "kind of truth" of existence asserted seems to be crucial.
absolutely! on a non-conventional level there is no "car" and no "self" to be found. Those terms and definitions are part of the conventional world and thus only apply in a conventional context. "car" for example is just another word used instead of "wheels, roof, seats, etc. in a certain relation, so that one can move from one place to another quite quickly". This means "car" does not have any independent meaning without these "things" on which a "car" depends on. That's why an arahant is still able to talk about himself on an conventional level. That's why we can say that I wrote this. The conventional world is the world of terms and definitions, nothing else.

best wishes, acinteyyo
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.
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Re: The four noble truths - and craving.

Post by vinasp »

Hi thereductor,

thereductor wrote:There is 'clinging to views' as one of the four forms of clinging... but what is a 'view'? It is a class of mental object comprised of the usual suspects: perception, thought and feeling - with form and consciousness acting as support. So at the time that a view is present, it is itself an element of the being as it currently is.
"...but what is a 'view' ?" That is a good question. I agree that it must be related to mental objects.

If I am trying to argue that bhava tanha is the craving which results in views of existence then clearly we need some understanding of what views are, and how they arise.

My knowledge is limited to the five nikayas, which do not describe views in a clear way. Are you basing your understanding of views on the nikayas, or a later teaching?

Best wishes, Vincent.
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Re: The four noble truths - and craving.

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

I think that what I am trying to argue is that bhava tanha is the craving that produces, or results in, views of an existing self. So I need to explain my understanding of views. This is difficult because I am still working on this problem. But here is an outline of my present understanding of views:

"That eternalist view is a formation. That formation what is its source, what is its origin, from what is it born and produced? When the uninstructed worldling ... is contacted by a feeling born of ignorance-contact, craving arises : thence that formation is born." Parileyya Sutta.

So the eternalist view is produced from a craving, that means that it belongs at the level of clinging in the D.O. formula. We know that one kind of clinging is 'view-clinging'.
My understanding in outline is this: When someone is clinging to an idea they are said to have a view. The idea itself is not a view. It is only when the mind becomes obsessed with the idea, and clings to it, that they speak of a view. This means that there is no view other than view-clinging. This should not be called 'clinging to views' - what is clung to is an idea. It's the clinging that makes it a view.
It follows that the craving that produces the view-clinging is not a 'craving for views' but a craving for ideas. The term 'view-craving' was used in some early discourses, but was later replaced by other terms. One of these is 'dhamma-tanha' or craving for mind-objects.

In MN 9. 38 craving (in D.O.) is said to be sixfold, craving for form, sounds, odours, flavours, tangibles and craving for mind-objects. The first five comprise the craving for sensual pleasures (kama-tanha). Which leaves one other kind of craving - craving for mind-objects. This is craving for ideas, and is the craving that produces view-clinging and therefore views.

This means that when talking about views we have to separate the 'conceptual content' aspect from the 'mental clinging' aspect. The content of the view is just an idea or a group of ideas. These are not, in themselves, a view. The mental clinging depends on craving, feeling, and contact with the idea. It is the mind becoming obsessed with that idea.
This is why I argue that 'views' are not 'normal beliefs' but what we would call delusions or obsessions.

I will argue that bhava tanha (existence craving) is the craving that produces views of an existing self. And that vibhava tanha (non-existence craving) produces views of a not-existing self. These are, therefore, special forms of dhamma tanha.

Best wishes, Vincent.
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Re: The four noble truths - and craving.

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Vincent,
vinasp wrote:I will argue that bhava tanha (existence craving) is the craving that produces views of an existing self. And that vibhava tanha (non-existence craving) produces views of a not-existing self. These are, therefore, special forms of dhamma tanha.
This doesn't seem quite right to me.

Bhava tanha is craving for something to exist.

Vibhava tanha is craving for something not to exist.

Kama-tanha is craving for something of the senses that is desirable. In retrospect, this could also be in the top-right corner of the matrix below.

All of these involve the establishment of a false dichotomy between experiencer and experience, and therefore result in jati.

Here you go, I've drawn you a matrix...
tanha.JPG
tanha.JPG (14.63 KiB) Viewed 3056 times
Relevant quotation from SN 12.15
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one.

"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is in bondage to attachments, clingings (sustenances), & biases. But one such as this does not get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or obsessions; nor is he resolved on 'my self.' He has no uncertainty or doubt that just stress, when arising, is arising; stress, when passing away, is passing away. In this, his knowledge is independent of others. It's to this extent, Kaccayana, that there is right view.

"'Everything exists': That is one extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.
The Buddha is cool. 8-)

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: The four noble truths - and craving.

Post by vinasp »

Hi retrofuturist,
retrofuturist wrote:Bhava tanha is craving for something to exist.
I do not see what is meant by this, can you give some specific examples? - thanks.

Best wishes, Vincent.
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Re: The four noble truths - and craving.

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Vincent,
vinasp wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Bhava tanha is craving for something to exist.
I do not see what is meant by this, can you give some specific examples? - thanks.
"I want to see Niagara Falls" (the sight of Niagara Falls does not currently exist for you but you want it to exist in your field of vision)

"I want to hear the new Pet Shop Boys album" (the sound of the new PSB album does not currently exist in your ears, but you want it to)

"I want to solve this mathematical problem" (the solution does not currently exist in your mind, but you want it to).

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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