Breath

[Collective]

I'm having trouble locating the breath during meditation. No matter where, stomach, or nostrils. It gets that subtle as to be non existent. So what I do, is become aware of my breathing holistically. Not confined to one particular location, I become aware of my entire body breathing in and out.

Is this recommended, is it good?

Thank you

[Ben]

Hi Collective

It depends what you are trying to do - whether its the samatha or vipassana variant of anapanasati. So, this is dependent on what you're doing.
Don;t be too alarmed by the breath becoming too subtle to observe. Its still there but in the beginning our powers of perception are not great and, in time, we're able to discern subtler and subtler sensation for longer and longer periods uninterruptedly. The samatha variant of anapana I practice (from time to time), I maintain awareness of the touch of the breath under the nostrils. If I were to lose awareness of the touch of the breath, I exert a couple of forced, harder, breaths, to reorient my awareness, to anchor my awareness before returning to natural breath.
If your intention is to practice samatha, then dispersing your awareness throughout your body may not be conducive to developing the sort of samadhi that is then useful in vipassana.
BTW, what instructions do you have with your meditation kit?
kind regards

Ben

[Collective]

I'm practising vipassana.

The instructions are to just focus on the breath, the sensation in the nose. Warm, cool, that kind of thing. But it gets so subtle, I can't.

[PeterB]

I suggest that you stick with it for a month or two Collective. You may well find that its a question of fine tuning...stick with it even when if feels that the sensations are too subtle to discern. You may well find them again. Its a little like thoughts, you might conclude that thoughts have stopped, but a little persistance might show that they have become more subtle..
Stick at it.

[meindzai]

Obviously you never stopped breathing altogether or you wouldn't be reading this so I think the above are correct - it's more about becoming more perceptive of your breathing. Maybe if you focused on a different area that would help. I've been using the abdomen for years. Even if the breathing is subtle you can keep your attention there. There are also lots of other things going on in the body that are tied up with breathing - abdominal muscles, back muscles, shoulders rising and falling and so on - the whole body is slightly expanding and contracting as a result of more air going in and out. There is really a lot to pick up on.

-M

[Kenshou]

If your intention is to practice samatha, then dispersing your awareness throughout your body may not be conducive to developing the sort of samadhi that is then useful in vipassana.

Why is this, Ben? I ask because this is how I do it, after the connection with the breath has been made firm at least.

[seanpdx]

Obviously you never stopped breathing altogether or you wouldn't be reading this

Although this particular comment was likely made in jest, it does remind me of one of my sits a month or so ago, in a timed group setting. I began to notice that I was barely breathing: the breath was not only infrequent, but very shallow. The rising and falling of the abdomen was nearly imperceptible. I watched it for a while, becoming more and more infrequent, and more and more shallow. In hindsight, I can't say with certainty what it was on which I was focusing. It wasn't much longer before the bell rang ending the meditation. I kind of wonder whether I would've stopped breathing entirely for a while had it kept going. =D

But of course, obviously I never stopped breathing altogether or I wouldn't be writing this. Hehe.

[meindzai]

Obviously you never stopped breathing altogether or you wouldn't be reading this

Although this particular comment was likely made in jest, it does remind me of one of my sits a month or so ago, in a timed group setting. I began to notice that I was barely breathing: the breath was not only infrequent, but very shallow. The rising and falling of the abdomen was nearly imperceptible. I watched it for a while, becoming more and more infrequent, and more and more shallow. In hindsight, I can't say with certainty what it was on which I was focusing. It wasn't much longer before the bell rang ending the meditation. I kind of wonder whether I would've stopped breathing entirely for a while had it kept going. =D

But of course, obviously I never stopped breathing altogether or I wouldn't be writing this. Hehe.

I didn't want to confuse the OP so I didn't mention it at first, but I have heard that "breathing" may stop in the fouth jhana (but so would any concern over it) though technically "respiration" is still happening through pores and eyes and so forth. I don't know if that's been medically verified though.

-M

[seanpdx]

Obviously you never stopped breathing altogether or you wouldn't be reading this

Although this particular comment was likely made in jest, it does remind me of one of my sits a month or so ago, in a timed group setting. I began to notice that I was barely breathing: the breath was not only infrequent, but very shallow. The rising and falling of the abdomen was nearly imperceptible. I watched it for a while, becoming more and more infrequent, and more and more shallow. In hindsight, I can't say with certainty what it was on which I was focusing. It wasn't much longer before the bell rang ending the meditation. I kind of wonder whether I would've stopped breathing entirely for a while had it kept going. =D

But of course, obviously I never stopped breathing altogether or I wouldn't be writing this. Hehe.

I didn't want to confuse the OP so I didn't mention it at first, but I have heard that "breathing" may stop in the fouth jhana (but so would any concern over it) though technically "respiration" is still happening through pores and eyes and so forth. I don't know if that's been medically verified though.

-M

It's overly (and overtly, heh) religious mumbo-jumbo. Furthermore, it's not even buddhist mumbo-jumbo. Breathless meditation is an ascetic non-buddhist practice, and is one likely source for this particular claim. The canon describes the Buddha's attempt at attaining enlightenment through breathless meditation, and his subsequent dismissal of such a practice as not being conducive. I've read various people who claim that breathing stops during fourth jhana, but their logic for such a claim is often abysmal at best.

Physiologically, it's ludicrous, beyond a handful of minutes. =)

[meindzai]

It's overly (and overtly, heh) religious mumbo-jumbo. Furthermore, it's not even buddhist mumbo-jumbo.

"And I have also taught the step-by-step cessation of fabrications. When one has attained the first jhana, speech has ceased. When one has attained the second jhana, directed thought & evaluation have ceased. When one has attained the third jhana, rapture has ceased. When one has attained the fourth jhana, in-and-out breathing has ceased.. "

Rahogata Sutta: Alone

-M

[Kenshou]

Is it unreasonable to think that perhaps the breathing becomes fine enough, due to the stillness of the state, that it may slip under awareness while not actually stopping altogether? That strikes me as both more realistic and likely than a literal cessation of breathing.

[seanpdx]

Is it unreasonable to think that perhaps the breathing becomes fine enough, due to the stillness of the state, that it may slip under awareness while not actually stopping altogether? That strikes me as both more realistic and likely than a literal cessation of breathing.

It's not unreasonable, but:

Then, Aggivessana, I thought: ‘Let me perform meditation without breath’. Then indeed, Aggivessana, I stopped breathing out and breathing in, both through the mouth and through the nose. When, Aggivessana, my breathing out and breathing in had been stopped, both through the mouth and through the nose, there came about the extremely strong noise of winds which went out through my ears. Just as when an extremely strong noise comes about when the bellows of a smith are blown, just so indeed, Aggivessana, there came about the extremely strong noise of winds which went out through the ears, when my breathing out and breathing in had been stopped both through the mouth and through the nose. But, Aggivessana, my energy was aroused, not shrinking, my mindfulness was alert, not distracted, but my body was impetuous, not calmed, while I was harassed by that painful exertion. Even such a painful experience, Aggivessana, when it happened to me, did not completely take hold of my thought.

Then, Aggivessana, I thought: ‘Let me perform meditation fully without breath’. Then indeed, Aggivessana, I stopped breathing out and breathing in through mouth, nose and ears. When, Aggivessana, my breathing out and breathing in had been stopped through mouth, nose and ears, extremely strong winds shook up my head. Just as when, Aggivessana, a strong man may destroy a head with the sharp edge of a sword, just so indeed, Aggivessana, extremely strong winds shook up my head, when breathing out and breathing in had been stopped through mouth, nose and ears. But, Aggivessana, my energy ... did not completely take hold of my mind.

[meindzai]

The meditation without breath being described involves actually holding the breath, and has nothing to do with the fourth jhana, where it is said to simply cease.

-M

[rowyourboat]

If a person is deeply absorbed (not superficially) into the fourth jhana the relaxation is so deep that the breath does stop. The body needs less and less oxygen and the breath can stop for a few seconds even before the first jhana (anapanasati sutta 1st tetrad- fourth line- the ceasing of the breath body), but it stopping in the fouth jhana is longer. There is an element of non-perceiving as well, but even if intentionally the attention is directed to the breath and searched, it is not there. This sounds incredible/impossible to the lay listener but then many things that happen during meditation experience are beyond the realm of our normal day to day experience and this is one of them.

[catmoon]

Here's an odd point. Suppose you had perforated eardrums. It should be possible then to actually breathe through your ears, via the Eustachian tubes. You wouldn't get much air though, and I think the effort would be large.