Bhava-tanha explanation

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sentinel
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Re: Bhava-tanha explanation

Post by sentinel » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:32 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:45 am
"Now what is aging and death? Whatever aging, decrepitude, brokenness, graying, wrinkling, decline of life-force, weakening of the faculties of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called aging. Whatever deceasing, passing away, breaking up, disappearance, dying, death, completion of time, break up of the aggregates, casting off of the body, interruption in the life faculty of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called death.

Regards
Very unlikely .

Let's see ,
aging of a (view) , decrepit of a (view) , breaking of a (view) , graying of a (view) , wrinkling of a (view) , declining of a life force , weakening of the faculties of the various (views) , in this group or that group of (views) , that is called aging .


If aging & death was biological, then I think the suttas would say Arahants & Buddhas age & die. But the suttas appear to say Arahants & Buddhas do not age & die (marana).

The dependent origination apply to ignorant person . The cessation of dependent origination apply to arhat and the Buddha .
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Dinsdale
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Re: Bhava-tanha explanation

Post by Dinsdale » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:49 pm

sentinel wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:32 pm
DooDoot wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:45 am
"Now what is aging and death? Whatever aging, decrepitude, brokenness, graying, wrinkling, decline of life-force, weakening of the faculties of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called aging. Whatever deceasing, passing away, breaking up, disappearance, dying, death, completion of time, break up of the aggregates, casting off of the body, interruption in the life faculty of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called death.

Regards
Very unlikely .

Let's see ,
aging of a (view) , decrepit of a (view) , breaking of a (view) , graying of a (view) , wrinkling of a (view) , declining of a life force , weakening of the faculties of the various (views) , in this group or that group of (views) , that is called aging .


If aging & death was biological, then I think the suttas would say Arahants & Buddhas age & die. But the suttas appear to say Arahants & Buddhas do not age & die (marana).

The dependent origination apply to ignorant person . The cessation of dependent origination apply to arhat and the Buddha .
I agree. It simply doesn't make sense to talk about the birth, aging and death of a view, given how these nidanas are actually described in SN12.2. The nidana descriptions are clearly physical/biological, and not purely mental/psychological.

Ironically the "death" of identity view is a goal of practice.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

Dinsdale
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Re: Bhava-tanha explanation

Post by Dinsdale » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:51 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:51 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:50 am
I have previously requested that you don't reply to any of my posts, so please respect my wishes.
I don't remember. Since I have no validation of your past request, do you wish to make a new request for the future? :shrug:
You shouldn't chase after the past
or place expectations on the future.
What is past
is left behind.
The future
is as yet unreached.

MN 131
I say again, please do not reply to any more of my posts. Further replies will be reported as a breach of TOS.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

sentinel
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Re: Bhava-tanha explanation

Post by sentinel » Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:08 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:49 pm
Ironically the "death" of identity view is a goal of practice.
I supposed " destroy " or " uproot " of identity view appear better describe it .
:coffee:

Dinsdale
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Re: Bhava-tanha explanation

Post by Dinsdale » Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:32 pm

sentinel wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:08 pm
Dinsdale wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:49 pm
Ironically the "death" of identity view is a goal of practice.
I supposed " destroy " or " uproot " of identity view appear better describe it .
It probably would. In any case I don't see how a view could get broken teeth, grey hair and wrinkled skin!
This is clearly describing the aging process of a human body.

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.2/en/bodhi
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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retrofuturist
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Re: Bhava-tanha explanation

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:31 pm

Greetings,
Dinsdale wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:51 pm
I say again, please do not reply to any more of my posts. Further replies will be reported as a breach of TOS.
Noted.

A reminder of the TOS provision in question...
2. Speech

Any subject matter that may be off-topic or is intended to cause disruption or harm may be removed without notice. This includes, but is not restricted to:.
...
j. Pressuring members to engage, despite them having already explicitly declined such engagement in the current topic
:thanks:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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DooDoot
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Re: Bhava-tanha explanation

Post by DooDoot » Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:09 pm

sentinel wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:32 pm
Very unlikely .

Let's see ,
aging of a (view) , decrepit of a (view) , breaking of a (view) , graying of a (view) , wrinkling of a (view) , declining of a life force , weakening of the faculties of the various (views) , in this group or that group of (views) , that is called aging .
You have misunderstood. I already explained to you, as follows:
"Now what is aging and death? Whatever aging, decrepitude, brokenness, graying, wrinkling, decline of life-force, weakening of the faculties of the various identity views that are "beings", such as my mother, my father, my sister, my brother, myself in this or that group of beings, such as my family, my community, my country, that is called aging. Whatever deceasing, passing away, breaking up, disappearance, dying, death, completion of time, break up of the aggregates, casting off of the body, interruption in the life faculty of the various identity views that are beings/identities in this or that group of beings, that is called death.
It is very likely, as the suttas appears to explain, as follows:
Bhikkhu, ‘I am’ is a conceiving; ‘I am this’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall not be’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be possessed of form’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be formless’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be percipient’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be non-percipient’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be neither-percipient-nor-non-percipient’ is a conceiving. Conceiving is a disease, conceiving is a tumour, conceiving is a dart. By overcoming all conceivings, bhikkhu, one is called a sage at peace. And the sage at peace is not born, does not age, does not die; he is not shaken and does not yearn. For there is nothing present in him by which he might be born. Not being born, how could he age? Not ageing, how could he die? Not dying, how could he be shaken? Not being shaken, why should he yearn?

MN 140
Bhikkhu Thanissaro did not have a problem understanding my interpretation:
Thanissaro wrote:
11) Birth: the actual assumption of an identity on any of these three levels.

12) The aging-and-death of that identity, with its attendant sorrow, lamentation,
pain, distress, and despair.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... fering.pdf
When you look in the mirror and see grey hair & wrinkled skin and suffer about the grey hair & wrinkled skin, you suffer because of the thought: "my hair is grey; my skin is wrinkling, I am aging". The views of "I", "my", "I am", etc, are views. :smile:
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Last edited by DooDoot on Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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sentinel
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Re: Bhava-tanha explanation

Post by sentinel » Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:37 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:09 pm


You have misunderstood. I already explained to you, as follows:
"Now what is aging and death? Whatever aging, decrepitude, brokenness, graying, wrinkling, decline of life-force, weakening of the faculties of the various identity views that are "beings", such as my mother, my father, my sister, my brother, myself in this or that group of beings, such as my family, my community, my country, that is called aging. Whatever deceasing, passing away, breaking up, disappearance, dying, death, completion of time, break up of the aggregates, casting off of the body, interruption in the life faculty of the various identity views that are beings/identities in this or that group of beings, that is called death.
It is very likely, as the suttas appears to explain, as follows:
Bhikkhu, ‘I am’ is a conceiving; ‘I am this’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall not be’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be possessed of form’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be formless’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be percipient’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be non-percipient’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be neither-percipient-nor-non-percipient’ is a conceiving. Conceiving is a disease, conceiving is a tumour, conceiving is a dart. By overcoming all conceivings, bhikkhu, one is called a sage at peace. And the sage at peace is not born, does not age, does not die; he is not shaken and does not yearn. For there is nothing present in him by which he might be born. Not being born, how could he age? Not ageing, how could he die? Not dying, how could he be shaken? Not being shaken, why should he yearn?

MN 140
Bhikkhu Thanissaro did not have a problem understanding my interpretation:
Thanissaro wrote:
11) Birth: the actual assumption of an identity on any of these three levels.

12) The aging-and-death of that identity, with its attendant sorrow, lamentation,
pain, distress, and despair.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... fering.pdf
When you look in the mirror and see grey hair & wrinkled skin and suffer about the grey hair & wrinkled skin, you suffer because of the thought: "my hair is grey; my skin is wrinkling, I am aging". The views of "I", "my", "I am", etc, are views. :smile:
That i could understand , but ,

In the dependent origination , clinging link would include self view , therefore , not logical to say after the link of continuation or becoming then led to link of birth of a identity view !?



https://suttacentral.net/mn9/en/bodhi

There are these four kinds of clinging: clinging to sensual pleasures, clinging to views, clinging to rituals and observances, and clinging to a doctrine of self.
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