The way I analysed Sankhara.

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
SarathW
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Re: The way I analysed Sankhara.

Post by SarathW » Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:38 pm

Thanks Auto.
I do not understand what you say, even though I know where you comming from.
End of the day they all perception and feeling.
They arise and perish.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

confusedlayman
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Re: The way I analysed Sankhara.

Post by confusedlayman » Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:58 pm

SarathW wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:46 am
Recently I was away from Dhamma Wheel for a few weeks and had the opportunity to contemplate on Dhamma. This analyisis cannot be supported by any particular Sutta however may be in line with Cula Vedalla Sutta. Please free to comment or add your thoughts.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

There are three main types of Sankhara. (verbal, bodily and mental) It is important to understand the relationship in these three types of Sankhara as they are directly linked to meditative attainments and Nibbana. Please note according to Dependent Origination Sankhara Nirodha (cessation) means Nibbana. These three types of Sankara are ceased gradually.

Verbal.

There are many verbal Sankahara varied from most gross to most subtle.
- The grossest form of verbal Sankhara is the breaking of the fourth precept. This includes lying, harsh speech etc.
- The wholesome speeches like giving a Dhamma talk
- Nither wholesome nor unwholesome speeches required to our day to day activities
- Vitakka Vicara in gross form. (thinking and evaluation)
- wholesome Vitakka and Vicara. (ie first Jhana)
- Vitakka and Vicara in more subtle form like a newly born child. This is the most subtle verbal Sankhara.
- Vitakka and Vicara stop in second Jhana. this is the end of verbal Sankhara


Bodily
There are many Bodily Sankahara varied from most gross to most subtle.

- The grossest form of verbal Sankhara is the breaking of the first three precepts.
- Other bodily expressions. :jumping: :shrug: :cry: :rolleye: :twothumbsup: etc
- Wholesome bodily actions like Dana or giving
- Walking, sitting lying neutral bodily actions
- Breath is the most subtle bodily Sankhara
- Breath stop at fourth Jhana This is the end of Bodily Sankhara

Mental Sankhara
There are many mental Sankahara varied from most gross to most subtle.
There are two main types of mental Sankhara. Citta Sankhara (perception and feeling) and Mano Sankhara (other 50 Cetacika as per Abhidhamma)
Please refer to the following link for further details.

http://103.242.110.22/theravadins/Engli ... actice.pdf

- Unmindfulness result from taking alcohol is the grossest mental Sankhara
- Unwholesome thoughts
- Wholesome thoughts (beautiful thoughts)
- Perception and feeling is the most subtle mental Sankhara
- Perception and feelings stop at Nirodha Samapatthi. This is the end of mental Sankhara ie: Nibbana

Now compare this analysis to the Satipathana Sutta and see how this related to Nibbana. Please also note how Sila (vertues) play a major part in meditation.
I spoke harshly to people so it works to encourage them.. did I break 4th precept? I still speak bad words on others when angry... oh no
non-agitation is highest peace
living unaffected by other cause and condition to suffering is true bliss
not associating with stupid people is immediate peace
- CL (confused layman)

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DooDoot
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Re: The way I analysed Sankhara.

Post by DooDoot » Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:02 am

confusedlayman wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:58 pm
I spoke harshly to people so it works to encourage them.. did I break 4th precept? I still speak bad words on others when angry... oh no
4th precept is only about dishonest speech. 4th precept is not about harsh speech.

:focus:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

SarathW
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Re: The way I analysed Sankhara.

Post by SarathW » Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:33 am

4th precepts can be practiced in many levels.
Not telling lies is the grossest state of speech.
However, as a Buddhist you expect to follow the Noble Eightfold Path and expect to practice Right Speach.

=========
Right speech, explained in negative terms, means avoiding four types of harmful speech: lies (words spoken with the intent of misrepresenting the truth); divisive speech (spoken with the intent of creating rifts between people); harsh speech (spoken with the intent of hurting another person's feelings); and idle chatter (spoken with no purposeful intent at all).

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... peech.html
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

sentinel
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Re: The way I analysed Sankhara.

Post by sentinel » Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:50 am

Sankhara in dependent origination cannot be taken as verbal , bodily and mental aspects .
If cessation of feeling perception is nibbana , there were many many arhats that never attained to jhana of cessation of feeling perception i.e. nirodha samapatti .
If cessation of sankhara is the cessation of mental aspects ie feeling perception , that's mean with the cessation of feeling perception , it will follow by cessation of consciousness in the dependent origination ? ! Therefore , an arhat do not have consciousness !!! :shrug:
Obviously , the cessation of sankhara is not equivalent to nibbana .
:coffee:

auto
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Re: The way I analysed Sankhara.

Post by auto » Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:54 pm

SarathW wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:38 pm
Thanks Auto.
I do not understand what you say, even though I know where you comming from.
End of the day they all perception and feeling.
They arise and perish.
an argument:
Viññāṇa is sense-organ's vihāra.
vihāra - live feed, online.
saṅkhāra - deeds(kamma) are done for the purpose of ending what needs(cetanā) to be done.

jhana is fine material realm where lust arises because of perceptions and manasikara of counterpart object of your object at hand.
Cakkhu rūpañca viññāṇaṃ,
phasso ca vedanāya ca;
Saññā ca cetanā taṇhā,
dhātu khandhena te dasāti.
dhātu khandha seem to be reality where lies(vihāra) counterpart object.
..
'Mind leaning on renunciation' = arupa where lust doesn't arise, anidassam.

https://suttacentral.net/sn27.10/en/sujato
A mind imbued with renunciation is declared to be capable of directly knowing anything that can be realized.”Nekkhammaparibhāvitaṃ cittaṃ kammaniyaṃ khāyati, abhiññā sacchikaraṇīyesu dhammesū”ti.
out and in breaths are object and its counterpart, they switch places at times, in intervals.

auto
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Re: The way I analysed Sankhara.

Post by auto » Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:17 pm

SarathW wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:33 am
Why Abhidhamma does not classify perception and feeling as Sankhara (fabrications)?

The Abhidhamma lists 52 kinds of cetasikas. One is feeling (vedanaa), another is perception (saññaa). The remaining 50 are grouped together under the term sa"nkhaaraa.

https://accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors ... el322.html

"In-&-out breaths are bodily fabrications. Directed thought & evaluation are verbal fabrications. Perceptions & feelings are mental fabrications."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
cetasika is constituent of a cetanā. Perception and feeling are cittasankhara what form cetanā. Perception&feeling are for cetana as contact is for vinnana.
Perception and feeling is used to do deeds to fulfill tanha of a cetana.

auto
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Re: The way I analysed Sankhara.

Post by auto » Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:35 am

SarathW wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:38 pm
End of the day they all perception and feeling.
They arise and perish.
you mean in and out breath as perception and feeling? i think they could function as perception and feeling and causing cetanā to reveal itself.

SarathW
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Re: The way I analysed Sankhara.

Post by SarathW » Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:22 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:32 pm
SarathW wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:46 am
Please note according to Dependent Origination Sankhara Nirodha (cessation) means Nibbana. These three types of Sankara are ceased gradually.
The above appears to say an Arahant has no breathing, no thinking, no perception & no feeling; which sounds wrong. The suttas say Arahants feel & perceive (Iti 44) and say Nibbana is the "calming" of all sankhara ("sabbasaṅkhārasamatho"; MN 26). The suttas also say the Buddha The Arahant practised Anapanasati, therefore had kaya sankhara.
SarathW wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:46 am
Perception and feelings stop at Nirodha Samapatthi. This is the end of mental Sankhara ie: Nibbana
.
Agree.
The key to understand this is to understand the "Sankhara paccaya Vinnana" in Dependent Origination.
Vinnana in DO refers to rebirth consciousness (Patisandi Vinnana)
Hence Sankhara in DO means rebirth making Sankhara.
When it says Sankhara Nirodha means "cessation of rebirth making Sankhara"
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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DooDoot
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Re: The way I analysed Sankhara.

Post by DooDoot » Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:57 am

SarathW wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:22 am
Vinnana in DO refers to rebirth consciousness (Patisandi Vinnana)
Not according to the suttas. Patisandi Vinnana is not from the suttas. It is a later invention.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

SarathW
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Re: The way I analysed Sankhara.

Post by SarathW » Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:25 am

I know it is an Abhidhamma terminology and it does not mean it is not in Sutta.
I think we had this discussion before.
I found the Sutta which mentions Patisandi Citta.
I found there is a translation error in Bhante Sujato's translation and I pointed out to him and he said he is looking to it.
So keep the option open.
I can't contact Bhante Sujato any more as Sutta Central has Suspended my membership for life!

https://buddhism.stackexchange.com/ques ... l-sankhara


Another discussion:

https://buddhism.stackexchange.com/ques ... with-mn-38
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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DooDoot
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Re: The way I analysed Sankhara.

Post by DooDoot » Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:09 am

SarathW wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:25 am
I know it is an Abhidhamma terminology and it does not mean it is not in Sutta.
The suttas literally say the consciousness in D.O. is the six types of consciousness.
SarathW wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:25 am
I found the Sutta which mentions Patisandi Citta.
Then post it.
SarathW wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:25 am
I can't contact Bhante Sujato any more as Sutta Central has Suspended my membership for life!
Why? Did you criticise Cultural Marxism or Radical Feminist Lesbianism?
This BSE is just Asian bloggers, most who can't even speak proper English. For example, the blogger from Kurunegala Sri Lanka posted this illogical idea of a permanent stream of impermanent consciousness: :roll:
Kurunegala wrote:Stream of consciousness OR Continuity of consciousness means individual consciousness which arises (uppada), exists (titi), ceases (bhanga) rapidly as an effect of many causes. It's just a stream, not a long lasting single one.
:focus:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

sentinel
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Re: The way I analysed Sankhara.

Post by sentinel » Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:42 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:09 am

This BSE is just Asian bloggers, most who can't even speak proper English. For example, the blogger from Kurunegala Sri Lanka posted this illogical idea of a permanent stream of impermanent consciousness: :roll:
Kurunegala wrote:Stream of consciousness OR Continuity of consciousness means individual consciousness which arises (uppada), exists (titi), ceases (bhanga) rapidly as an effect of many causes. It's just a stream, not a long lasting single one.
:focus:
It appears there were no mentioning of Permanent stream in the thread .
:coffee:

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