Brasington's entrance into jhanas in suttas and commentaries?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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DooDoot
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Re: Brasington's entrance into jhanas in suttas and commentaries?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Oct 04, 2019 1:15 am

Modus.Ponens wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 1:12 am
Ayya Khema was probably an arahat.
Not based on the video.
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 1:12 am
I would not criticise her so carelessly if I were you.
According to which law? The Vinaya? The Vinaya says "overestimation" is the only defense against expulsion from the order of bhikkhus due to making false claims about attainments of jhana. My critique is not careless. It is the opposite. I regard my critique as heedful. I turned the video off when access concentration was inaccurately discussed. It seems Ayya Khema overestimated her experiences and underestimated jhana. It appears, the lady was not an Arahant or Non-Returner. Kind regards :meditate:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Brasington's entrance into jhanas in suttas and commentaries?

Post by Modus.Ponens » Fri Oct 04, 2019 12:24 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 1:15 am
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 1:12 am
Ayya Khema was probably an arahat.
Not based on the video.
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 1:12 am
I would not criticise her so carelessly if I were you.
According to which law? The Vinaya? The Vinaya says "overestimation" is the only defense against expulsion from the order of bhikkhus due to making false claims about attainments of jhana. My critique is not careless. It is the opposite. I regard my critique as heedful. I turned the video off when access concentration was inaccurately discussed. It seems Ayya Khema overestimated her experiences and underestimated jhana. It appears, the lady was not an Arahant or Non-Returner. Kind regards :meditate:
No, it wasn't heedful criticism because you posted earlier a grossly uncharitable interpretation of what she was saying in the video.

But, let's not forget you're the one with a wrong interpretation of the jhanas. For example, the MN119 reference flew over your head. The mention of the body is important, but you missed the "permeates and pervades" part. In hard jhana the attention is fixed on the object and cannot permeate and pervade the entire body.
"He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' " - Jhana Sutta

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Re: Brasington's entrance into jhanas in suttas and commentaries?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Oct 04, 2019 12:30 pm

Modus.Ponens wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 12:24 pm
In hard jhana the attention is fixed on the object and cannot permeate and pervade the entire body.
The above was already addressed with a quote from Ajahn Brahm about "kaya". It appears a lack of concentration results in not reading another's posts clearly and replying. In a Dhamma discussion, each point is heard & responded to.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Brasington's entrance into jhanas in suttas and commentaries?

Post by Modus.Ponens » Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:15 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 12:30 pm
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 12:24 pm
In hard jhana the attention is fixed on the object and cannot permeate and pervade the entire body.
The above was already addressed with a quote from Ajahn Brahm about "kaya". It appears a lack of concentration results in not reading another's posts clearly and replying. In a Dhamma discussion, each point is heard & responded to.
It wasn't. I do lack concentration, but the point remains unaddressed.

It is one thing for the body to be pervaded by rapture and pleasure as a "side effect" of concentration, which is what happens in hard jhana. It is another for the meditator to pervade and permeate his body with rapture and pleasure. The former is passive, the latter is voluntary. And to be voluntary, like referenced in MN119, the mind cannot be completely fixed on the object.

What seems to happen is that the deeper the concentration, the more automatic the processes associated with jhana become (transition between jhanas, pervasion of the body, or time spent during jhana). But if you are rigid and only accept hard jhana as the only valid form of concentration, it might complicate your life.
"He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' " - Jhana Sutta

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Re: Brasington's entrance into jhanas in suttas and commentaries?

Post by confusedlayman » Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:13 pm

Modus.Ponens wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:15 pm
DooDoot wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 12:30 pm
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 12:24 pm
In hard jhana the attention is fixed on the object and cannot permeate and pervade the entire body.
The above was already addressed with a quote from Ajahn Brahm about "kaya". It appears a lack of concentration results in not reading another's posts clearly and replying. In a Dhamma discussion, each point is heard & responded to.
It wasn't. I do lack concentration, but the point remains unaddressed.

It is one thing for the body to be pervaded by rapture and pleasure as a "side effect" of concentration, which is what happens in hard jhana. It is another for the meditator to pervade and permeate his body with rapture and pleasure. The former is passive, the latter is voluntary. And to be voluntary, like referenced in MN119, the mind cannot be completely fixed on the object.

What seems to happen is that the deeper the concentration, the more automatic the processes associated with jhana become (transition between jhanas, pervasion of the body, or time spent during jhana). But if you are rigid and only accept hard jhana as the only valid form of concentration, it might complicate your life.
aint u need to induce pleasure like a spark before 1st jhana? or it comes naturally without cause? or 5 sense please dont occur means it leads to neutral feeling or u glad that 5 sense pleasure dont occur and that gladness becomes Piti or sukkka?
non-agitation is highest peace
living unaffected by other cause and condition to suffering is true bliss
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Re: Brasington's entrance into jhanas in suttas and commentaries?

Post by confusedlayman » Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:04 am

Modus.Ponens wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:07 am
I have a theory of how this approach maps well to the Anapanasati Sutta instructions. This is my personal opinion and, as far as I know, is not shared by Ayya Khema. The Anapanasati Sutta says

""[1] Breathing in long, he discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, he discerns, 'I am breathing out long.' [2] Or breathing in short, he discerns, 'I am breathing in short'; or breathing out short, he discerns, 'I am breathing out short.' [3] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the entire body.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the entire body.' [4] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming bodily fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming bodily fabrication.'

"[5] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to rapture.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to rapture.' [6] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to pleasure.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to pleasure.' [7] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to mental fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to mental fabrication.' [8] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming mental fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming mental fabrication.'

"[9] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the mind.' [10] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in satisfying the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out satisfying the mind.' [11] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in steadying the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out steadying the mind.' [12] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in releasing the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out releasing the mind.'
"

Steps 1 and 2 are to build concentration.
Steps 3 and 4 are to set the stage for jhana, with full body awareness, and a calm body and breath.

Step 5 is when the first jhana can mature. Rapture and pleasure arise, but the focus is on rapture.

Step 6 is when the second jhana can mature. The focus is now on pleasure.

This is where it gets tricky... because the transition to third jhana can be difficult if the meditator is not fully satisfied with the time spent absorbed in pleasure (sukkha).

Steps 7 and 8 are to notice and then let go of the attachment to pleasure. These are the mental fabrications to be calmed.
Steps 9 and 10 are to satisfy the mind with contentment.
Step 11 is to steady the mind on contentment, thus steadying the mind on the third jhana.

Step 12 is to release the mind of the attachment and aversion of the mind to pain and pleasure, thus entering the fourth jhana.

A skilled and experienced meditator will probably be able to skip the intermediary steps between jhanas, making the transitions smooth and natural. Also, if a meditator builds enough concentration at the beginning, it's probably possible to make the transitions smoother. I believe Ayya Khema instructed her students to build a solid concentration before shifting attention to the sequential jhana factors, thus making the transitions between jhanas natural and almost automatic. However, I personally believe this is a very plausible interpretation of the Anapanasati Sutta.
Brasington said in one video, he can repeat it which means he is well known with that method and can describe in detail. if his students can also get same exp, then it's working. I hope at least some of them in this forum are benefited by his teaching. as for me I know him only today after seeing this post and yet to learn his instruction and see if it's works. thanks.
non-agitation is highest peace
living unaffected by other cause and condition to suffering is true bliss
not associating with stupid people is immediate peace
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Re: Brasington's entrance into jhanas in suttas and commentaries?

Post by DooDoot » Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:21 am

Modus.Ponens wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:15 pm
It is one thing for the body
Kaya does not necessarily mean "physical body". You keep repeating an invalid or unsubstantiated argument. Ajahn Brahm disagreed with your ideas yet you have not yet offered a refutation of Ajahn Brahm. Instead, you keep repeating your unsubstantiated argument rather than engage in proper debate.
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:15 pm
to be pervaded by rapture and pleasure as a "side effect" of concentration, which is what happens in hard jhana.
Rapture is not a "side-effect" of concentration. If rapture was a side-effect of concentration then people who feel rapture when taking heroin or opiates would be concentrated.

Rapture is a result of the nervous-system purifying and calming; which occurs from stopping unwholesome states & allowing the previously accumulated unwholesome tendencies to dissolve.

As described in the cruder Anapanasati process, the cause of rapture is calming the breathing & body. Right concentration is another result of this process. Both concentration & its co-factor rapture develop together when unwholesome states are prevented with right effort & right mindfulness and the mind develops "collectedness" ("samadhi") together with rapture.

Rapture develops commensurately with samadhi however, during kayanupassana, rapture is not the predominant meditation object because the breathing & body dominate the sphere of consciousness experience. It is only when the breathing ceases to impinge upon consciousness as the predominant object does rapture 'come to the surface' as the predominant object. Therefore, the idea that rapture is experienced within the physical body (as a factor of jhana) appears illogical.

The breath (per Anapanasati Sutta) must be calmed before rapture is the salient predominant object and, when the breath is calmed, consciousness of the body will also diminish because the mind/consciousness requires the breathing as a vehicle or road to travel within the physical body. When breathing is pervasively calmed, awareness of the physical body will simultaneously diminish & cease.
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:15 pm
It is another for the meditator to pervade and permeate his body with rapture and pleasure. The former is passive, the latter is voluntary.
Rapture is not voluntary; unless it arises from deluded sankhara (thinking). Rapture is, in fact, the very opposite of voluntary.
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:15 pm
And to be voluntary, like referenced in MN119
MN 119 does not refer to any "voluntary rapture". Instead, MN 119 appears to refer to the very subtle use of mindfulness to control vitakka & vicara, which are actually obstacles to rapture. Thus, the rapture is there but can be diminished by vitakka & vicara.

Allow me to offer my interpretation of MN 119:
MN 119 wrote:They drench, steep, fill, and spread their body with rapture and bliss born of seclusion. There’s no part of the body that’s not spread with rapture and bliss born of seclusion.
1. Per SN 48.10, jhana is developed by 'letting go' ('vossagga'), i.e., 'expanding', 'opening' or 'releasing' the mind.

2. When consummation of jhana occurs, vitakka & vicara moves towards to explore the rapture. This vitakka & vicara actually reduces the consciousness sphere of rapture. Thus, the 'kaya' or 'whole body' of the mind is not completely filled with rapture.

3. Mindfulness & sampajanna (which by now have been high developed) counteract the vitakka & vicara, by engaging the previous 'letting go' that was perfectly developed. By countering or drawing back the vitakka & vicara, the rapture expands and the whole 'kaya' of the mind is filled with rapture.

4. Note: MN 119 does not say: "They drench, steep, fill, and spread their body with vitakka and vicara".

5. Therefore, what is being described in MN 119 is not the volitional production of rapture but, instead, the removal of impediments to the already existing rapture.
MN 119 wrote:It’s like when a deft bathroom attendant or their apprentice pours bath powder into a bronze dish, sprinkling it little by little with water. They knead it until the ball of bath powder is soaked and saturated with moisture, spread through inside and out; yet no moisture oozes out.
1. Above, it appears bath powder is the mind and the bronze dish is the body of the sphere/scope of conscious experience.

2. The 'kneading' is sati-sampajjana that has been highly trained and sprinkles the water of 'letting go' or 'vossagga' (aka, the Deathless).

3. The accumulated moisture that causes the bath power to expand is rapture.

4. Stopping the rapture or moisture from oozing out is the continuous stopping of vitakka & vicara from impeding upon the fullness of the rapture.
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:15 pm
the mind cannot be completely fixed on the object.
One part of the mind in jhana is completely fixed on the mental image; similar to a wheel fixed to an axle. Yet the wheel still spins & is round; similar to how the mind, while fixed in the middle, is exalted towards its horizons, in jhana. Also, while part of the mind is fixed, sati-sampajjana can still subtly operate.
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:15 pm
What seems to happen is that the deeper the concentration, the more automatic the processes associated with jhana become (transition between jhanas, pervasion of the body, or time spent during jhana). But if you are rigid and only accept hard jhana as the only valid form of concentration, it might complicate your life.
There is no such teaching of "hard" vs "soft jhana" nor "rigid jhana" in the suttas. The suttas (SN 48.10 and MN 118) say (the 1st) jhana is developed by making "letting go" ("vossagga") the meditation object and say the 4th jhana includes the qualities of "pliant and malleable". Therefore, there is no sutta evidence for "rigid" jhana; yet in jhana, the mind has ekaggata citta. What complicates life is taking a mundane interest in a superhuman phenomena. In actual jhana, a part of the mind is completely fixed; yet another part of the mind is luminous, spaciousness & exalted; and another part of the mind is sensitive & nimble (with perfect sati-satipajjana). Let me post the definition of the 4th jhana to free you of your rigid ideas about "soft" vs "hard". The following description of the 4th jhana obviously includes both "soft" & "hard" qualities: :roll:
When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady & attained to imperturbability

:smile:
Attachments
1st jhana 2.png
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:02 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Brasington's entrance into jhanas in suttas and commentaries?

Post by DooDoot » Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:33 am

Modus.Ponens wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:07 am
I have a theory of how this approach maps well to the Anapanasati Sutta instructions.
It appears Anapanasati and jhana cannot be completely "mapped" because their descriptions are different. My impression is Anapanasati is not jhana because:

1. Breathing is known in every step of Anapanasati yet the jhana teachings (SN 36.11) explicitly say knowing of breathing stops in jhana.

2. Steps 9 & 10 of Anapanasati appear to refer to more purifying of the mind from potential defilements, after rapture & happiness, which is not described in the jhana teachings.

3. This purifying the mind of impurities at step 9 introduces a 3rd kind of pleasurable feeling at step 10, which is not found in the jhana teachings.

4. That another, more subtle type of pleasant feeling arises at step 10 shows something potentially not pleasant (such as the appearance of underlying defilements arisen in the student meditator as a result of experiencing rapture) is occurring at step 9.

The impression is your strong efforts are directed towards watering down the jhana teachings, which leads to the making of false claims to attainments.
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:07 am
This is my personal opinion and, as far as I know, is not shared by Ayya Khema.
Two individuals of differing opinions can still both have wrong views in their opinions.
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:07 am
The Anapanasati Sutta says

....[4] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming bodily fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming bodily fabrication.'

"[5] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to rapture.' ....
It says rapture arises after calming the body therefore it appears obviously rapture is not experienced in the physical body,
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:07 am
Steps 1 and 2 are to build concentration.
Maybe.
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:07 am
Steps 3 and 4 are to set the stage for jhana, with full body awareness, and a calm body and breath.
No because awareness of breathing still exists.
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:07 am
Step 5 is when the first jhana can mature. Rapture and pleasure arise, but the focus is on rapture.
The suttas say the 1st jhana has five factors; where none of these five factors are the in & out breathing.
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:07 am
Step 6 is when the second jhana can mature. The focus is now on pleasure.
The suttas say the 2nd jhana has three factors; where none of these three factors are the in & out breathing.
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:07 am
This is where it gets tricky...
Its tricky because of not-knowing (avijja).
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:07 am
because the transition to third jhana can be difficult if the meditator is not fully satisfied with the time spent absorbed in pleasure (sukkha).
Lol. The suttas say what occurs in the transition to the 3rd jhana is "viraga", often translated as "dispassion", but translated in jhana as "fading away". What transitions jhanas, from the very beginning, are factors such as "vossagga" ("letting go"), "viraga" ("dispassion") and "nirodha" ("quenching") rather than being "fully satisfied". :!: :idea:

The idea above about "fully satisfied" is contrary to the suttas. For example, AN 4.123 says "taking satisfaction" in the jhanas leads to eventual rebirth in hell. :P
Again, there is the case where an individual, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. He savors that, longs for that, finds satisfaction through that. Staying there — fixed on that, dwelling there often, not falling away from that — then when he dies he reappears in conjunction with the Abhassara devas. The Abhassara devas, monks, have a life-span of two eons. A run-of-the-mill person having stayed there, having used up all the life-span of those devas, goes to hell, to the animal womb, to the state of the hungry shades. But a disciple of the Blessed One, having stayed there, having used up all the life-span of those devas, is unbound right in that state of being. This, monks, is the difference, this the distinction, this the distinguishing factor, between an educated disciple of the noble ones and an uneducated run-of-the-mill person, when there is a destination, a reappearing.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:pig:
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:07 am
Steps 7 and 8 are to notice and then let go of the attachment to pleasure. These are the mental fabrications to be calmed.
No. The citta-sankhara (mental fabricators) are rapture & happiness, themselves. "Citta-sankhara" is defined in the suttas as "feeling & perception". "Attachment" is a "mano-sankhara".
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:07 am
Steps 9 and 10 are to satisfy the mind with contentment.
No. Step 9 is described in MN 10, as follows:
And how does a monk remain focused on the mind in & of itself? There is the case where a monk, when the mind has passion, discerns that the mind has passion. When the mind is without passion, he discerns that the mind is without passion. When the mind has aversion, he discerns that the mind has aversion. When the mind is without aversion, he discerns that the mind is without aversion. When the mind has delusion, he discerns that the mind has delusion. When the mind is without delusion, he discerns that the mind is without delusion.

MN 10
:alien:
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:07 am
Step 11 is to steady the mind on contentment, thus steadying the mind on the third jhana.
No. Step 11 is done with knowing of breathing. SN 36.11 says there is not knowing of breathing in jhana.
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:07 am
Step 12 is to release the mind of the attachment and aversion of the mind to pain and pleasure, thus entering the fourth jhana.
No. Step 12 literally says liberating the mind itself from attachment.
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:07 am
I believe Ayya Khema instructed her students to build a solid concentration
Ayya Khema I recall I heard said "solid" is "10 minutes" of concentration. ;)
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:07 am
before shifting attention to the sequential jhana factors
Lol. "Shifting attention" implies something as highly-spoken of as "jhana" is not self-evident in experience.
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:07 am
However, I personally believe this is a very plausible interpretation of the Anapanasati Sutta.
The interpretation appears "highly imaginative" rather than "very plausible".

Anyway, thank you for your posts, which give the impression Ayya Khema was the mother who gave birth to the idea of "soft-jhana".

With metta :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Brasington's entrance into jhanas in suttas and commentaries?

Post by Modus.Ponens » Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:33 am

confusedlayman wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:13 pm
aint u need to induce pleasure like a spark before 1st jhana? or it comes naturally without cause? or 5 sense please dont occur means it leads to neutral feeling or u glad that 5 sense pleasure dont occur and that gladness becomes Piti or sukkka?
The short version of the instructions is this.

The method of choice (focusing on the breath, or metta, etc.) cultivates calm and focus. At some point, when the mind is focused and the body is calm, a delightful sensation will arise. Calmly shift the focus to the delightful sensation and pay attention to it. If you try to grab it, it starts vanishing, so just pay normal attention to it. If you learn to do this part well, the delightful sensation will mature into rapture (piti).

The delightful sensation is not pleasure (sukkha). Pleasure arises due to rapture because rapture is pleasant. Rapture and pleasure arise together but in the 1st jhana rapture is dominant.

In this approach, the method of meditation, regardless of the object, works like a key to unlock the door to jhana. You unlock the door when the delightful sensation arises. You go through the door when the delightful sensation matures into rapture. If you want to go through the door, you abandon the object of meditation and pay attention to the delightful sensation so it can mature into rapture.

After enough time in the 1st jhana, the pleasure that arises with rapture becomes more obvious. If you shift attention to that pleasure, then you enter 2nd jhana. Just like regular day to day pleasure arises naturally when you taste chocolate, spiritual pleasure (sukkha) arises naturally when you experience rapture. To enter 2nd jhana you shift the attention to the spiritual pleasure/enjoyment/sukkha itself. This spiritual pleasure is not as coarse as regular pleasure. It is a refined form of happy enjoyment.

The other jhanas are explained in the dahmma talk I linked earlier.
"He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' " - Jhana Sutta

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Re: Brasington's entrance into jhanas in suttas and commentaries?

Post by Modus.Ponens » Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:48 am

DooDoot,

You make a few valid points but your two posts are littered with basic reading comprehension mistakes. You often disagree with me when we're saying the same thing. You also often misinterpret what I'm saying. And given how uncharitable your interpretations are, I see no point in spending time replying to those two posts.

I still respect and admire Ajahn Brahm, though.
"He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' " - Jhana Sutta

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Re: Brasington's entrance into jhanas in suttas and commentaries?

Post by DooDoot » Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:49 am

Modus.Ponens wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:48 am
You often disagree with me when we're saying the same thing.
Impossible we ever said the same thing. To me, ideas, similar to Brasington's, appear unrelated to jhana and mock those bhikkhus and noble ones who did so much spiritual work to find & uphold the True Dhamma. Why would practitioners be revered & honored as "Noble" who concentrated for "10 minutes", as Ayya Khema taught?
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:48 am
how uncharitable your interpretations are
Charity is getting something without earning it; such as claiming jhana without actually attaining it. Should I be patronizing and support false ideas & claims about jhana, just to make another feel good?
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:48 am
I still respect and admire Ajahn Brahm, though.
Ajahn Brahm still disagreed with your arguments, for which you, appearing defeated, appeared unable to respond. However, personally, I would respect myself more than Ajahn Brahm given Ajahn Brahm, unlike myself, is not here charitably imparting Right View to you.
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:48 am
I see no point in spending time replying to those two posts.
Impossible for the defeated to reply. I don't recall you responding to any posts, anyway. While I carefully, diligently & respectfully reply to your posts, on a sentence-by-sentence basis, you seemed to ignore what I wrote and simply repeated your rhetoric or dogma of Ayya Khema's "soft-jhana", which I have not read any renowned bhikkhu teach. If jhana could be reached in 10 minutes, why would the Sangha of Bhikkus exist, with 227 Vinaya rules? . :smile:
Knowing this, the Licchavi Dummukha said to the Buddha, “A simile strikes me, Blessed One.”

“Then speak as you feel inspired,” said the Buddha.

“Sir, suppose there was a lotus pond not far from a town or village, and a crab lived there. Then several boys or girls would leave the town or village and go to the pond, where they’d pull out the crab and put it on dry land. Whenever that crab extended a claw, those boys or girls would snap, crack, and break it off with a stick or a stone. And when that crab’s claws had all been snapped, cracked, and broken off it wouldn’t be able to return down into that lotus pond. In the same way, sir, the Buddha has snapped, cracked, and broken off all Saccaka’s tricks, dodges, and evasions. Now he can’t get near the Buddha again looking for a debate.”

https://suttacentral.net/mn35/en/sujato
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Re: Brasington's entrance into jhanas in suttas and commentaries?

Post by confusedlayman » Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:51 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:49 am
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:48 am
You often disagree with me when we're saying the same thing.
Impossible we ever said the same thing. To me, ideas, similar to Brasington's, appear unrelated to jhana and mock those bhikkhus and noble ones who did so much spiritual work to find & uphold the True Dhamma. Why would practitioners be revered & honored as "Noble" who concentrated for "10 minutes", as Ayya Khema taught?
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:48 am
how uncharitable your interpretations are
Charity is getting something without earning it; such as claiming jhana without actually attaining it. Should I be patronizing and support false ideas & claims about jhana, just to make another feel good?
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:48 am
I still respect and admire Ajahn Brahm, though.
Ajahn Brahm still disagreed with your arguments, for which you, appearing defeated, appeared unable to respond. However, personally, I would respect myself more than Ajahn Brahm given Ajahn Brahm, unlike myself, is not here charitably imparting Right View to you.
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:48 am
I see no point in spending time replying to those two posts.
Impossible for the defeated to reply. I don't recall you responding to any posts, anyway. While I carefully, diligently & respectfully reply to your posts, on a sentence-by-sentence basis, you seemed to ignore what I wrote and simply repeated your rhetoric or dogma of Ayya Khema's "soft-jhana", which I have not read any renowned bhikkhu teach. If jhana could be reached in 10 minutes, why would the Sangha of Bhikkus exist, with 227 Vinaya rules? . :smile:
Knowing this, the Licchavi Dummukha said to the Buddha, “A simile strikes me, Blessed One.”

“Then speak as you feel inspired,” said the Buddha.

“Sir, suppose there was a lotus pond not far from a town or village, and a crab lived there. Then several boys or girls would leave the town or village and go to the pond, where they’d pull out the crab and put it on dry land. Whenever that crab extended a claw, those boys or girls would snap, crack, and break it off with a stick or a stone. And when that crab’s claws had all been snapped, cracked, and broken off it wouldn’t be able to return down into that lotus pond. In the same way, sir, the Buddha has snapped, cracked, and broken off all Saccaka’s tricks, dodges, and evasions. Now he can’t get near the Buddha again looking for a debate.”

https://suttacentral.net/mn35/en/sujato
u need to fulfil cause and condition to enter jhana. anyone who can do it can enter jhana because it is dependent arising based on cause and condition that initiates and supports it. layman can also enter jhana and if conditions are not fulfilled even monks can't enter. He said he has fmri images taken and studied in one video, I think its same video not sure but unless we are him, no use of judgement and we can take only positives from his instruction. s
non-agitation is highest peace
living unaffected by other cause and condition to suffering is true bliss
not associating with stupid people is immediate peace
- CL (confused layman)

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Re: Brasington's entrance into jhanas in suttas and commentaries?

Post by Modus.Ponens » Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:47 pm

You have replied about my theory of how to interpret the anapanasati sutta, which I implicitly admitted from the beginning, and admit explicitly here, is not a solid theory.

However, you did not make a proper argument against "soft jhana", which is why I repeatedly redirected you to the great jhana debate thread.

But let me give you an example of why replying to your posts in detail is wasting time.
DooDoot wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:21 am
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:15 pm
to be pervaded by rapture and pleasure as a "side effect" of concentration, which is what happens in hard jhana.
Rapture is not a "side-effect" of concentration. If rapture was a side-effect of concentration then people who feel rapture when taking heroin or opiates would be concentrated.

Rapture is a result of the nervous-system purifying and calming; which occurs from stopping unwholesome states & allowing the previously accumulated unwholesome tendencies to dissolve.
First of all, "side effect" was put in quotes for a good reason, i.e., not to be taken literally. So, this uncharitable interpretation made you go on a an irrelevant tangent. Replying to arguments that are irrelevant due to starting with uncharitable reading is wasting time.

Further, you are confusing basic logical arguments. If you (wrongly) interpret me as saying that rapture arises as a literal side effect due to concentration, and want to falsify my statement, then a counter argument would be "people get concentrated without taking heroin and feeling the heroin rapture". Not "people take heroin and feel the heroin rapture and do not get concentrated". The causal order is reversed. So, another waste of time is correcting logic

Yet another problem is your reading comprehension. I have said that you can experience the jhana factors and not be in jhana. You can pay attention to rapture and not be in jhana. What characterises jhana is directed thought, sustained thought, rapture, and pleasure. There is a sustained and stable attention that is absorbed (unified) in its object of concentration. It's not enough to pay attention to rapture. So you're not falsifying anything with those statements. Another waste of time is correcting your misreading.
DooDoot wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:21 am
As described in the cruder Anapanasati process, the cause of rapture is calming the breathing & body. Right concentration is another result of this process. Both concentration & its co-factor rapture develop together when unwholesome states are prevented with right effort & right mindfulness and the mind develops "collectedness" ("samadhi") together with rapture.
Yes, broadly speaking.
DooDoot wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:21 am
Rapture develops commensurately with samadhi however, during kayanupassana, rapture is not the predominant meditation object because the breathing & body dominate the sphere of consciousness experience. It is only when the breathing ceases to impinge upon consciousness as the predominant object does rapture 'come to the surface' as the predominant object. Therefore, the idea that rapture is experienced within the physical body (as a factor of jhana) appears illogical.
Ayya Khema's method differs from the traditional methods we usually learn, by making the jhana factors the objects of concentration themselves. If you understand that different objects can be focused on to bring about jhana, provided they're not unwholesome, then the jhana factors are valid objects of concentration. And useful ones at that, if you can manage the shift in attention and restabilization of the mind well.
DooDoot wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:21 am
The breath (per Anapanasati Sutta) must be calmed before rapture is the salient predominant object and, when the breath is calmed, consciousness of the body will also diminish because the mind/consciousness requires the breathing as a vehicle or road to travel within the physical body. When breathing is pervasively calmed, awareness of the physical body will simultaneously diminish & cease.
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:15 pm
It is another for the meditator to pervade and permeate his body with rapture and pleasure. The former is passive, the latter is voluntary.
Rapture is not voluntary; unless it arises from deluded sankhara (thinking). Rapture is, in fact, the very opposite of voluntary.
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:15 pm
And to be voluntary, like referenced in MN119
MN 119 does not refer to any "voluntary rapture". Instead, MN 119 appears to refer to the very subtle use of mindfulness to control vitakka & vicara, which are actually obstacles to rapture. Thus, the rapture is there but can be diminished by vitakka & vicara.
The phrase "He permeates and pervades his body with..." indicates voluntary participation. That voluntary participation can be subtle, but it's still voluntary. And that's the point that conflicts with hard jhana interpretation.
DooDoot wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:21 am
Allow me to offer my interpretation of MN 119:
MN 119 wrote:They drench, steep, fill, and spread their body with rapture and bliss born of seclusion. There’s no part of the body that’s not spread with rapture and bliss born of seclusion.
1. Per SN 48.10, jhana is developed by 'letting go' ('vossagga'), i.e., 'expanding', 'opening' or 'releasing' the mind.

2. When consummation of jhana occurs, vitakka & vicara moves towards to explore the rapture. This vitakka & vicara actually reduces the consciousness sphere of rapture. Thus, the 'kaya' or 'whole body' of the mind is not completely filled with rapture.

3. Mindfulness & sampajanna (which by now have been high developed) counteract the vitakka & vicara, by engaging the previous 'letting go' that was perfectly developed. By countering or drawing back the vitakka & vicara, the rapture expands and the whole 'kaya' of the mind is filled with rapture.

4. Note: MN 119 does not say: "They drench, steep, fill, and spread their body with vitakka and vicara".

5. Therefore, what is being described in MN 119 is not the volitional production of rapture but, instead, the removal of impediments to the already existing rapture.
MN 119 wrote:It’s like when a deft bathroom attendant or their apprentice pours bath powder into a bronze dish, sprinkling it little by little with water. They knead it until the ball of bath powder is soaked and saturated with moisture, spread through inside and out; yet no moisture oozes out.
1. Above, it appears bath powder is the mind and the bronze dish is the body of the sphere/scope of conscious experience.

2. The 'kneading' is sati-sampajjana that has been highly trained and sprinkles the water of 'letting go' or 'vossagga' (aka, the Deathless).

3. The accumulated moisture that causes the bath power to expand is rapture.

4. Stopping the rapture or moisture from oozing out is the continuous stopping of vitakka & vicara from impeding upon the fullness of the rapture.
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:15 pm
the mind cannot be completely fixed on the object.
One part of the mind in jhana is completely fixed on the mental image; similar to a wheel fixed to an axle. Yet the wheel still spins & is round; similar to how the mind, while fixed in the middle, is exalted towards its horizons, in jhana. Also, while part of the mind is fixed, sati-sampajjana can still subtly operate.
In "hard jhana" the totality of the mind is absorbed. This sounds a bit like "soft jhana".
DooDoot wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:21 am
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:15 pm
What seems to happen is that the deeper the concentration, the more automatic the processes associated with jhana become (transition between jhanas, pervasion of the body, or time spent during jhana). But if you are rigid and only accept hard jhana as the only valid form of concentration, it might complicate your life.
There is no such teaching of "hard" vs "soft jhana" nor "rigid jhana" in the suttas.

The suttas (SN 48.10 and MN 118) say (the 1st) jhana is developed by making "letting go" ("vossagga") the meditation object and say the 4th jhana includes the qualities of "pliant and malleable". Therefore, there is no sutta evidence for "rigid" jhana;
I never mentioned rigid jhana. I mentioned rigid interpretation of jhana, i.e., only this specific form of jhana is true jhana and nothing else. Again, wasting time with misreadings.

There is no hard jhana nor soft jhana in the suttas. There is jhana. In my view jhana is a category of experiences that has more range than you allow in your interpretation. The range is the degree of concentration in each jhana. In my view, the 4 jhanas are not 4 switches that are either on or off. They're like 4 pools and you can dive as deep as you need. But if you really want to be obstinate about it, the most plausible interpretation of the suttas is that "soft jhana" is the form of jhana being taught.
DooDoot wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:21 am
yet in jhana, the mind has ekaggata citta. What complicates life is taking a mundane interest in a superhuman phenomena. In actual jhana, a part of the mind is completely fixed; yet another part of the mind is luminous, spaciousness & exalted; and another part of the mind is sensitive & nimble (with perfect sati-satipajjana).
Sounds like "soft jhana"... in "hard jhana" the totality of the mind is absorbed.
DooDoot wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:21 am
Let me post the definition of the 4th jhana to free you of your rigid ideas about "soft" vs "hard". The following description of the 4th jhana obviously includes both "soft" & "hard" qualities: :roll:
When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady & attained to imperturbability

:smile:
A quote we've all read numerous times.

Well, this is the last example I will give you of wasting time. Correcting misreadings, logical falacies, and uncharitable straw men takes too much time. Especially when you are proposing a form of jhana that sounds midway between "soft jhana" and "hard jhana". Besides, the great jhana debate thread has discussed this issue to death and much better than both of us are doing here.
"He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' " - Jhana Sutta

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Re: Brasington's entrance into jhanas in suttas and commentaries?

Post by DooDoot » Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:23 pm

confusedlayman wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:51 am
u need to fulfil cause and condition to enter jhana. anyone who can do it can enter jhana because it is dependent arising based on cause and condition
jhana is not dependent arising. dependent arising is the path to suffering and not the path to ending suffering
confusedlayman wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:51 am
no use of judgement and we can take only positives from his instruction.
he is not teaching jhana. he is teaching something very simple that some people attach to. then these people post on forums claiming to have reach jhana and they make others feel inferior
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Re: Brasington's entrance into jhanas in suttas and commentaries?

Post by DooDoot » Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:27 pm

Modus.Ponens wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:47 pm
you did not make a proper argument against "soft jhana", which is why I repeatedly redirected you to the great jhana debate thread.
There is no "soft jhana". However, per the Anapanasati Sutta, there is an arising of rapture from calming breathing that is not jhana. But his rapture of Anapanasati is not a "soft jhana" because it is not yet "ekaggata". Ajahn Buddhadasa explained this, clearly:
Buddhadasa wrote:In our practice of step four of Anapanasati, it is not necessary to try to enter jhana completely. In the practice of Anapanasati those very refined levels of concentration are not necessary. We only need to have a sufficient and appropriate level of concentration to continue with our practice, that is, enough samadhi that there are the feelings of piti and sukha (contentment and happiness). We need to use piti and sukha in the next steps of our study. If you can go on into jhana, into the material absorptions (rupa-jhana), that will be useful. It will make the next steps easier. Even if you do not reach jhana, as long as there is some piti and sukha you are doing fine.

When the feelings piti and sukha are strong enough for the mind to feel them clearly, this is sufficient concentration to be able to go on to step five. If you enter the first, second, third, and fourth rupa-jhana that is more splendid yet. But samadhi sufficient to experience piti and sukha distinctly is enough for step four.

https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books3/Bhik ... athing.htm
The Commentaries have already covered this. The Commentaries say there is: (i) preparatory concentration; (ii) neighbourhood concentration & (iii) attainment/jhana concentration.

Brasington is teaching preparatory concentration; MN 118 Anapanasati appears to be neighbourhood concentration and jhana is jhana.

The Commentaries have utterly demolished Brasington's spiritual materialism and false teachings. There is no need to reinvent the wheel, here, with your clinging to an internet debate about jhana. :smile:
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:47 pm
in "hard jhana" the totality of the mind is absorbed
No. The above is utter non-sense & imaginings. The suttas repeat the jhana formula countless times. There is only one "Samma Samadhi Jhana" in the suttas. In each jhana, the mind is "ekaggata". Each jhana is part of the "five factored jhana" framework, where "ekaggata" is the defining factor of each jhana, as follows:
“Bhikkhus, I will teach you the development of noble five-factored right concentration. Listen and attend closely. I will speak.”

“Yes, Bhante,” those bhikkhus replied. The Blessed One said this:

“And what, bhikkhus, is the development of noble five-factored right concentration?

(1) “Here, secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters and dwells in the first jhāna... This is the first development of noble five-factored right concentration.

(2) “Again, with the subsiding of thought and examination, a bhikkhu enters and dwells in the second jhāna.... This is the second development of noble five-factored right concentration.

(3) “Again, with the fading away as well of rapture, a bhikkhu dwells equanimous and, mindful and clearly comprehending, he experiences pleasure with the body; he enters and dwells in the third jhāna.... This is the third development of noble five-factored right concentration.

(4) “Again, with the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the previous passing away of joy and dejection, a bhikkhu enters and dwells in the fourth jhāna... This is the fourth development of noble five-factored right concentration.


https://suttacentral.net/an5.28/en/bodhi
... jhana has five factors.... directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure & singleness of mind (cittekaggatā).

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
I already offered the simile of a wheel fixed to an axle. In jhana, the centre of the mind is fixed or "ekaggata". But other parts of the mind are exalted, luminous & discerning. Many teachers have given such metaphors.
MN 111 wrote:Furthermore, with the fading away of rapture, he entered and remained in the third absorption, where he meditated with equanimity, mindful and aware, personally experiencing the bliss of which the noble ones declare, ‘Equanimous and mindful, one meditates in bliss.’ And he distinguished the phenomena in the third absorption one by one: bliss and mindfulness and awareness and unification of mind (cittekaggatā); contact, feeling, perception, intention, mind, enthusiasm, decision, energy, mindfulness, equanimity and attention.

https://suttacentral.net/mn111/en/sujato
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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