Bhava-tanha explanation

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greenjuice
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Bhava-tanha explanation

Post by greenjuice » Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:37 pm

De Silva Padmasiri in the book An Introduction to Buddhist Psychology explains bhava-tanha as a motivational base which is craving for survival or continued existence, also including hunger and sleep as well as desire for power, wealth and fame. (Also he explains vibhava tanha as craving for annihilation, non-existence, also associated with aggression and violence towards oneself and others.) Is there any basis in the Suttas and/or Commentaries for explaining tanha in a broad way like this?

SarathW
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Re: Bhava-tanha explanation

Post by SarathW » Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:59 pm

bhava: 'becoming', 'process of existence', consists of 3 planes: sensuous existence (kāma-bhava), fine-material existence (rūpa-bhava), immaterial existence (arūpa-bhava). Cf. loka.

The whole process of existence may be divided into two aspects:

(1) Kamma-process (kamma-bhava), i.e. the kammically active side of existence, being the cause of rebirth and consisting in wholesome and unwholesome volitional actions. See Kamma, paṭiccasamuppāda (IX).

(2) Kamma-produced rebirth, or regenerating process (uppattibhava), i.e. the kammically passive side of existence consisting in the arising and developing of the kamma-produced and therefore morally neutral mental and bodily phenomena of existence. Cf. Tab. - (App.).

https://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic3_b.htm
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DooDoot
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Re: Bhava-tanha explanation

Post by DooDoot » Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:18 am

greenjuice wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:37 pm
Is there any basis in the Suttas and/or Commentaries for explaining tanha in a broad way like this?
hi GJ

It appears obvious tanha & bhava must cover every type of craving & becoming that lead to sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief & despair.

"Kama" or "sensuality" is defined as follows:
There are these five kinds of sensual stimulation. Pañcime, bhikkhave, kāmaguṇā.

What five?

Sights known by the eye that are likable, desirable, agreeable, pleasant, sensual, and arousing.

Sounds known by the ear …

Smells known by the nose …

Tastes known by the tongue …

Touches known by the body that are likable, desirable, agreeable, pleasant, sensual, and arousing.

These are the five kinds of sensual stimulation.

https://suttacentral.net/mn13/en/sujato
Since many ordinary cravings are not sensual (not pertaining to five physical sense bases) but psychological (such as the psychological/egotistical craving for security, safety, friendship, companionship, acceptance, fame, reputation, etc) then obviously these cravings & becomings fall into the category of bhavatanha, rupabhava and arupabhava.

As for the question, MN 44 probably covers applying the term "bhava" in the broadest possible manner, namely:
'The origination of self-identification, the origination of self-identification,' it is said, lady. Which origination of self-identification is described by the Blessed One?"

The craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming: This, friend Visakha, is the origination of self-identification described by the Blessed One."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Also, MN 9, SN 12.2, DN 22, etc, as follows:
And what is craving? These six are classes of craving: craving for forms, craving for sounds, craving for smells, craving for tastes, craving for tactile sensations, craving for mental objects. This is called craving.
Since "mental objects" do not fall within the category of the five chords of sensual pleasure, they cannot be kamatanha & kamabhava therefore must fall into the category of bhavatanha & arupabhava.

Also, there can be lust for jhana (ruparaga), lust for arupa jhana (aruparaga) and even lust towards Dhamma (dhammarāgena). These lusts or cravings are not sensual therefore must fall into the category of bhavatanha, rupabhave or arupabhava.

Regards :smile:
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Re: Bhava-tanha explanation

Post by sentinel » Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:44 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:18 am

I think the opposite question should be asked, For example, Bhikkhu Bodhi appears to attempt to narrow the meanings of bhava by translating "kamabhava" as "sense-sphere existence" rather than "sensual existence".
Can there be sensuality without the sense sphere existence ?
(AN 3.76). Venerable Ananda approaches the Master and says, "'Existence, existence' is spoken of, venerable sir. In what way is there existence?" The Buddha replies: "If there were no kamma ripening in the sensory realm, no sense-sphere existence would be discerned. If there where no kamma ripening in the form realm, no form-sphere existence would be discerned. If there were no kamma ripening in the formless realm, no formless-sphere existence would be discerned.
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Re: Bhava-tanha explanation

Post by DooDoot » Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:23 am

sentinel wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:44 am
Can there be sensuality without the sense sphere existence ?
Hi Sentinel. I posted sensuality relates to five sense spheres rather than six sense spheres. Also, the translation you posted is a wrong translation because a Pali equivalent the term "sense-sphere" is not found in the Pali. Regards
“If, Ānanda, there were no deeds to result in the sensual realm, would continued existence in the sensual realm still come about?”

Kāmadhātuvepakkañca, ānanda, kammaṃ nābhavissa, api nu kho kāmabhavo paññāyethā”ti?

Ananda, if there were no kamma ripening in the sensuality-property, would sensuality-becoming be discerned?"
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Re: Bhava-tanha explanation

Post by sentinel » Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:24 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:23 am
sentinel wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:44 am
Can there be sensuality without the sense sphere existence ?
Hi Sentinel. I posted sensuality relates to five sense spheres rather than six sense spheres. Also, the translation you posted is a wrong translation because a Pali equivalent the term "sense-sphere" is not found in the Pali. Regards
“If, Ānanda, there were no deeds to result in the sensual realm, would continued existence in the sensual realm still come about?”

Kāmadhātuvepakkañca, ānanda, kammaṃ nābhavissa, api nu kho kāmabhavo paññāyethā”ti?

Ananda, if there were no kamma ripening in the sensuality-property, would sensuality-becoming be discerned?"
Isn't that sense sphere is ayatana ?
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Re: Bhava-tanha explanation

Post by DooDoot » Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:27 am

sentinel wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:24 am
Isn't that sense sphere is ayatana ?
Yes. The word "ayatana" is not in AN 3.76.
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Re: Bhava-tanha explanation

Post by sentinel » Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:30 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:27 am
.....
Sense sphere and sense realm not similar ?
Ayatana can be internal or external . What about dhatu ?
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Re: Bhava-tanha explanation

Post by DooDoot » Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:24 am

sentinel wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:30 am
Sense sphere and sense realm not similar ?
Ayatana can be internal or external . What about dhatu ?
I am not sure AN 3.76 is a good sutta for this discussion because, to me, it is a sutta that many monks wish to twist the meaning to support doctrines of reincarnation.

'Kama' means 'sensual' rather than 'sense' ('ayatana'). AN 3.76 appears to simply say, in literal word order:
Doot wrote:Kāmadhātuvepakkañca, ānanda, kammaṃ nābhavissa, api nu kho kāmabhavo paññāyethā”ti?

Sensuality-element-ripening and (together with) kamma not coming-to-be, could there be sensual becoming discerned/manifesting?
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Bhava-tanha explanation

Post by Dinsdale » Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:58 am

greenjuice wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:37 pm
De Silva Padmasiri in the book An Introduction to Buddhist Psychology explains bhava-tanha as a motivational base which is craving for survival or continued existence, also including hunger and sleep as well as desire for power, wealth and fame. (Also he explains vibhava tanha as craving for annihilation, non-existence, also associated with aggression and violence towards oneself and others.) Is there any basis in the Suttas and/or Commentaries for explaining tanha in a broad way like this?
In DO, birth, aging and death arise in dependence upon bhava, and these nidanas are clearly described in physical/biological terms (see the nidana descriptions in SN12.2).
So I think that interpreting bhava-tanha as equivalent to evolutionary "survival instinct" is valid. It can be viewed as the craving for continued life, for continued existence as a biological entity, for continued "physical" sense experience.
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Re: Bhava-tanha explanation

Post by DooDoot » Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:18 am

Since the birth, aging and death nidanas refer to birth, aging and death of "beings" ("sattanam") and since SN 23.2 defines "a being" ("satta") as "strong clinging" ("visatta"), it seems these nidanas may possibly not actually be "physical/biological". In addition, SN 5.10 appears to say "a being" ("satta") is a "view", "word" and "convention", which also entertains the possibly these nidanas may possibly not actually be "physical/biological". If you have not read SN 23.2 & SN 5.10 before, I have included links to them in my post. Kind regards :smile:
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Bhava-tanha explanation

Post by sentinel » Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:42 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:18 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:58 am
In DO, birth, aging and death arise in dependence upon bhava, and these nidanas are clearly described in physical/biological terms (see the nidana descriptions in SN12.2).
Since the birth, aging and death nidanas refer to birth, aging and death of "beings" ("sattanam") and since SN 23.2 defines "a being" ("satta") as "strong clinging" ("visatta"), it seems these nidanas may possibly not actually be "physical/biological". In addition, SN 5.10 appears to say "a being" ("satta") is a "view", "word" and "convention", which also entertains the possibly these nidanas may possibly not actually be "physical/biological". If you have not read SN 23.2 & SN 5.10 before, I have included links to them in my post. Kind regards :smile:
DD ,

May I ask , are you suggesting in the dependent origination , birth , aging and death of a being is of a View . Therefore , birth of a view ( sounds good) , aging of a view (sounds awkward) , death of a view (sounds still okay) .

Regards
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Re: Bhava-tanha explanation

Post by DooDoot » Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:45 am

sentinel wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:42 am
aging of a view (sounds awkward)
If you see the corpse of a stranger, such as on TV or in a video of a war, you do not suffer or you might feel some sympathy. You do not suffer very much because you only see a "corpse". But if you see the corpse of your mother, you suffer very much because of the idea or view or identity of "my mother". When you see the corpse of your mother, you do not see only a corpse, only aggregates, only elements (dhatu), only ayatana (sense object). You see the mental conception of "my mother". Because of this mental conception or self-identity of "my mother" you suffer sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief & despair. :|
Lord, how could there not be an aberration in my faculties? My dear & beloved little son, my only child, has died. Because of his death, I have no desire to work or to eat. I keep going to the cemetery and crying out, 'Where have you gone, my only little child? Where have you gone, my only little child?'

That's the way it is, householder. That's the way it is — for sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are born from one who is dear, come springing from one who is dear.

MN 87
The tears you have shed over the death of a mother... — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — are greater than the water in the four great oceans. Long have you experienced the death of a father... the death of a brother... the death of a sister... the death of a son... the death of a daughter..

SN 15.3
And what may be said to be subject to death? Spouses & children are subject to death. Men & women slaves... goats & sheep... fowl & pigs... elephants, cattle, horses, & mares... gold & silver are subject to death. Subject to death are these acquisitions, and one who is tied to them, infatuated with them, who has totally fallen for them, being subject to death, seeks what is likewise subject to death.

MN 26
The many diverse kinds of suffering that arise in the world headed by aging-and-death: this suffering has acquisition as its source, acquisition as its origin; it is born and produced from acquisition. When there is acquisition, aging-and-death comes to be; when there is no acquisition, aging-and-death does not come to be.’

SN 12.66
If aging & death was biological, then I think SN 12.2 would say:
"Now what is aging and death? Whatever aging, decrepitude, brokenness, graying, wrinkling, decline of life-force, weakening of the faculties of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called aging. Whatever deceasing, passing away, breaking up, disappearance, dying, death, completion of time, break up of the aggregates, casting off of the body, interruption in the life faculty of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called death.
If aging & death was biological, then I think the suttas would say Arahants & Buddhas age & die. But the suttas appear to say Arahants & Buddhas do not age & die (marana).

Regards
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:57 am, edited 3 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Bhava-tanha explanation

Post by Dinsdale » Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:50 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:18 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:58 am
In DO, birth, aging and death arise in dependence upon bhava, and these nidanas are clearly described in physical/biological terms (see the nidana descriptions in SN12.2).
Since the birth, aging and death nidanas refer to birth, aging and death of "beings" ("sattanam") and since SN 23.2 defines "a being" ("satta") as "strong clinging" ("visatta"), it seems these nidanas may possibly not actually be "physical/biological". In addition, SN 5.10 appears to say "a being" ("satta") is a "view", "word" and "convention", which also entertains the possibly these nidanas may possibly not actually be "physical/biological". If you have not read SN 23.2 & SN 5.10 before, I have included links to them in my post. Kind regards :smile:
I have previously requested that you don't reply to any of my posts, so please respect my wishes.
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Re: Bhava-tanha explanation

Post by DooDoot » Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:51 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:50 am
I have previously requested that you don't reply to any of my posts, so please respect my wishes.
I don't remember. Since I have no validation of your past request, do you wish to make a new request for the future? :shrug:
You shouldn't chase after the past
or place expectations on the future.
What is past
is left behind.
The future
is as yet unreached.

MN 131
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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