looking for citation, pīti and sukha of 4 jhānas compared to dying of thirst, seeing water in distance, and drinking it

[frank k]

https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... -pond.html
excerpt:
MN 40: what is the meaning of the lotus pond simile?
There's an excellent simile in the Theravada non canonical literature explaining the difference between piti and sukha in the first 3 jhanas, reminiscent of the lotus pond in this sutta MN 40. (citation?)
As I remember it:
Piti = you're in a desert, dying of thirst, as you're approaching oasis/pond, you realize there's water in the distance, that you're not going to die, and you're going to drink that water soon. The thrill and excitement of that is piti.
sukha = you've arrived at the oasis/pond, now you're drinking the water. The pleasure from actually drinking the water is sukha.

Three questions:
1. what is the citation of that piti sukha simile for the 4 jhanas from?
2. might this sutta, MN 40, be what inspired that simile for jhana piti/sukha differentiation? Should the words piti sukha appear in MN 40 lotus pond, but got lost in transmission?
3. What does the MN 40 lotus pond simile mean on its own terms, just for this sutta? What are the 4 directions referring to?

[Nicolas]

And wherever the two are associated, happiness is the contentedness at getting a desirable object, and bliss is the actual experiencing of it when got. Where there is happiness there is bliss (pleasure); but where there is bliss there is not necessarily happiness. Happiness is included in the formations aggregate; bliss is included in the feeling aggregate. If a man, exhausted in a desert, saw or heard about a pond on the edge of a wood, he would have happiness; if he went into the wood’s shade and used the water, he would have bliss. And it should be understood that this is said because they are obvious on such occasions.

Rapture is like a weary traveler in the desert in summer, who hears of, or sees water or a shady wood. Ease is like his enjoying the water or entering the forest shade. For a man who, traveling along the path through a great desert and overcome by the heat is thirsty and desirous of drink, if he saw a man on the way, would ask, "Where is water?" The other would say, "Beyond the wood is a dense forest with a natural lake. Go there, and you will get some." He hearing these words would be glad and delighted. Going onwards, be would see men with wet clothes and hair, hear the sound of wild fowl and pea-fowl, etc., see the dense forest of green like a net of jewels by the edge of the natural lake, he would see the water lily, the lotus, the white lily, etc., growing in the lake, he would see the clear transparent water, he would be all the more glad and delighted, would descend into the natural lake, bathe and drink at pleasure and, his oppression being allayed, he would eat the fibers and stalks of the lilies, adorn himself with the blue lotus, carry on his shoulders the roots of the mandalaka, ascend from the lake, put on his clothes, dry the bathing cloth in the sun, and in the cool shade where the breeze blew ever so gently lay himself down and say: "O bliss! O bliss!" Thus should this illustration be applied: — The time of gladness and delight from when he heard of the natural lake and the dense forest till he saw the water is like piti having the manner of gladness and delight at the object in view. The time when, after his bath and drink be laid himself down in the cool shade, saying, "O bliss! O bliss!" etc., is the sense of sukha grown strong, established in that mode of enjoying the taste of the object.

[Dhammanando]

1. what is the citation of that piti sukha simile for the 4 jhanas from?

The Visuddhimagga (PoP. ch. IV. 100; also Dhs-a. 117):

Kantārakhinnassa vanantudakadassanasavanesu viya pīti. Vanacchāyāpavesanaudakaparibhogesu viya sukhaṃ.

Pīti is like when a man exhausted in a desert sees or hears about a pond on the edge of a wood. Sukha is like the man's going into the shade of the wood and using the water.

2. might this sutta, MN 40, be what inspired that simile for jhana piti/sukha differentiation?

Perhaps. Though I believe there are one or two other suttas about thirst-quenching that might make for a better fit.

Should the words piti sukha appear in MN 40 lotus pond, but got lost in transmission?

I don't see any indication that this would be needed or that it would likely have been an intended point in the sutta.

3. What does the MN 40 lotus pond simile mean on its own terms, just for this sutta? What are the 4 directions referring to?

The answer is in the next paragraph of the sutta:

* thirsty men from the four directions = men from the four varṇas.
* entering the lotus pond = their going forth in the Tathāgata's dhammavinaya, developing the brahmavihāras, attaining inner calm.

[DooDoot]

The Visuddhimagga (PoP. ch. IV. 100; also Dhs-a. 117)

Venerable Dhammanando. I started a topic about the above, at this link. Does not the Visuddhimagga here say piti is a mental formation (sankhara) and sukha is a feeling (vedana)? If so, how do you reconcile this with the suttas, which seems to include rapture (piti) within feelings (vedana), such as in MN 118? Thank you.

[Volo]

Venerable Dhammanando. I started a topic about the above, at this link. Does not the Visuddhimagga here say piti is a mental formation (sankhara) and sukha is a feeling (vedana)? If so, how do you reconcile this with the suttas, which seems to include rapture (piti) within feelings (vedana), such as in MN 118? Thank you.

I hope Ven Dhammanando would give his feedback to your question, but here is what I have found so far:

Vism says:

230. Here, moreover, in the “happiness” [pīti] clause feeling is stated under the heading of “happiness”.

apicettha pītipade pītisīsena vedanā vuttā.

Commentary to Vism clarifies:

pītisīsena vedanā vuttāti pītiapadesena taṃsampayuttā vedanā vuttā, na pītīti adhippāyo.

With the statement of pīti, the feeling connected with it is stated, not pīti [itself] is intended.

Also, let's not forget that in the second (i.e. feeling) tetrad of ānāpānasati mental formation is mentioned. Elsewhere (i.e. MN 44) perception and feeling is called mental formation. But perception is not a feeling either.

[frank k]

Thanks Bhante. dhs-a is Atthasālinī, a commentary on Dhammasangani (one of the 7 abhdihamma books) correct?
Both authored by B. Buddhaghosa, so presumably the same passage.
That simile of piti being mental in origin, and sukha being physical, agrees with the standard EBT piti-manassa, kayo passambhati, passaddha kayassa sukhino. (SN 46.3, among about 50 other references).
I didn't see that simile in the vimt., or in KN Peta, so probably of later origin, but still a valid and good simile.

1. what is the citation of that piti sukha simile for the 4 jhanas from?

The Visuddhimagga (PoP. ch. IV. 100; also Dhs-a. 117):

Kantārakhinnassa vanantudakadassanasavanesu viya pīti. Vanacchāyāpavesanaudakaparibhogesu viya sukhaṃ.

Pīti is like when a man exhausted in a desert sees or hears about a pond on the edge of a wood. Sukha is like the man's going into the shade of the wood and using the water.

2. might this sutta, MN 40, be what inspired that simile for jhana piti/sukha differentiation?

Perhaps. Though I believe there are one or two other suttas about thirst-quenching that might make for a better fit.

Should the words piti sukha appear in MN 40 lotus pond, but got lost in transmission?

I don't see any indication that this would be needed or that it would likely have been an intended point in the sutta.

3. What does the MN 40 lotus pond simile mean on its own terms, just for this sutta? What are the 4 directions referring to?

The answer is in the next paragraph of the sutta:

* thirsty men from the four directions = men from the four varṇas.
* entering the lotus pond = their going forth in the Tathāgata's dhammavinaya, developing the brahmavihāras, attaining inner calm.

[Dhammanando]

Does not the Visuddhimagga here say piti is a mental formation (sankhara) and sukha is a feeling (vedana)?

Yes.

If so, how do you reconcile this with the suttas, which seems to include rapture (piti) within feelings (vedana), such as in MN 118?

I think most of what I would say has already been said by Volo. To sum up:

• Pīti is never referred to as a vedanā in any Pali text whatever.

• In the Suttanta Piṭaka pīti is never really defined, except by a list of ten synonyms (i.e., pāmojjaṃ, modanā, āmodanā, pamodanā, hāso, pahāso, vitti, tuṭṭhi, odagyaṃ and attamanatā cittassa), given in the Niddesa and Paṭisambhidāmagga.

• The classification of pīti as an item in saṅkhārakkhandha doesn't originate with the commentaries but goes back to the Abhidhamma Piṭaka's Dhammasaṅgaṇī and Vibhaṅga.

• That the second ānāpānassati tetrad corresponds to vedanānupassanā doesn't oblige us to conclude that the pītipaṭisaṃvedī in this tetrad is a vedanā, for the tetrad also includes cittasaṅkhārapaṭisaṃvedī. Cittasaṅkhārā includes saññā, which is certainly not a vedanā.

[Dhammanando]

Thanks Bhante. dhs-a is Atthasālinī, a commentary on Dhammasangani (one of the 7 abhdihamma books) correct?

Yes.

That simile of piti being mental in origin, and sukha being physical, agrees with the standard EBT piti-manassa, kayo passambhati, passaddha kayassa sukhino. (SN 46.3, among about 50 other references).

You're welcome to take it that way if you want, but it isn't of course what Buddhaghosa himself had in mind. For him sukha here means somanassa and kāya means the body of mental factors (= second, third and fourth khandhas). From his commentary to SN 46.2:

Kāyapassaddhī ti: tiṇṇaṃ khandhānaṃ darathapassaddhi. Cittapassaddhī ti viññāṇakkhandhassa darathapassaddhi.

"Tranquillity of body" means tranquillisation of distress in three aggregates [i.e., feeling, perception, compositions]. "Tranquillity of mind" means tranquillisation of distress in the aggregate of consciousness."

[frank k]

how does that simile make any sense then? if piti is mentally originated, sukha is mentally originated, then what's the point of trying to differentiate them? the point of creating the simile is to help someone understand the difference between what parts of the four jhanas are physical and what parts are mentally originated.

Te Ab Vb theravada abhidhamma vibhanga clearly states in 7sb awakening factors, under sutta method kaya is physical, under abhidhamma method it's collection of mental aggregates. And since the standard four jhana formula is sutta, then sutta method would take precedence.

Thanks Bhante. dhs-a is Atthasālinī, a commentary on Dhammasangani (one of the 7 abhdihamma books) correct?

Yes.

That simile of piti being mental in origin, and sukha being physical, agrees with the standard EBT piti-manassa, kayo passambhati, passaddha kayassa sukhino. (SN 46.3, among about 50 other references).

You're welcome to take it that way if you want, but it isn't of course what Buddhaghosa himself had in mind. For him sukha here means somanassa and kāya means the body of mental factors (= second, third and fourth khandhas). From his commentary to SN 46.2:

Kāyapassaddhī ti: tiṇṇaṃ khandhānaṃ darathapassaddhi. Cittapassaddhī ti viññāṇakkhandhassa darathapassaddhi.

"Tranquillity of body" means tranquillisation of distress in three aggregates [i.e., feeling, perception, compositions]. "Tranquillity of mind" means tranquillisation of distress in the aggregate of consciousness."

[frank k]

thanks for looking up and pasting those references!
how much of english translation of atthasailini and other commentaries (sutta and abhidhamma) freely available?

And wherever the two are associated, happiness is the contentedness at getting a desirable object, and bliss is the actual experiencing of it when got. Where there is happiness there is bliss (pleasure); but where there is bliss there is not necessarily happiness. Happiness is included in the formations aggregate; bliss is included in the feeling aggregate. If a man, exhausted in a desert, saw or heard about a pond on the edge of a wood, he would have happiness; if he went into the wood’s shade and used the water, he would have bliss. And it should be understood that this is said because they are obvious on such occasions.

Rapture is like a weary traveler in the desert in summer, who hears of, or sees water or a shady wood. Ease is like his enjoying the water or entering the forest shade. For a man who, traveling along the path through a great desert and overcome by the heat is thirsty and desirous of drink, if he saw a man on the way, would ask, "Where is water?" The other would say, "Beyond the wood is a dense forest with a natural lake. Go there, and you will get some." He hearing these words would be glad and delighted. Going onwards, be would see men with wet clothes and hair, hear the sound of wild fowl and pea-fowl, etc., see the dense forest of green like a net of jewels by the edge of the natural lake, he would see the water lily, the lotus, the white lily, etc., growing in the lake, he would see the clear transparent water, he would be all the more glad and delighted, would descend into the natural lake, bathe and drink at pleasure and, his oppression being allayed, he would eat the fibers and stalks of the lilies, adorn himself with the blue lotus, carry on his shoulders the roots of the mandalaka, ascend from the lake, put on his clothes, dry the bathing cloth in the sun, and in the cool shade where the breeze blew ever so gently lay himself down and say: "O bliss! O bliss!" Thus should this illustration be applied: — The time of gladness and delight from when he heard of the natural lake and the dense forest till he saw the water is like piti having the manner of gladness and delight at the object in view. The time when, after his bath and drink be laid himself down in the cool shade, saying, "O bliss! O bliss!" etc., is the sense of sukha grown strong, established in that mode of enjoying the taste of the object.

[ToVincent]

... kayassa sukhino. (SN 46.3, among about 50 other references).

Really! ?!?!

This is the usual extract:

Pītimanassa kāyo passambhati.
Passaddhakāyo sukhaṃ vediyati.
Sukhino cittaṃ samādhiyati.
Samāhite citte dhammā pātubhavanti.

With the pleasure (of the mano), the body becomes tranquil.
One tranquil in body experiences pleasure (of the citta).
A sukhino citta becomes established.
In a citta that is established (定), phenomena become manifest.
.
.

[Dhammanando]

how much of english translation of atthasailini and other commentaries (sutta and abhidhamma) freely available?

The Atthasālini translation ("The Expositor") is among the texts that the PTS has made legally available in its entirety. You can get scanned copies of the two volumes from archive.org

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.92596

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.282115

The Sammohavinodanī (Vibhaṅga Atthakathā), translated by Ñāṇamoli as "Dispeller of Delusion" is unfortunately not yet legally available.

[frank k]

pleasure (of the citta),

that part in parenthesis is your own interpolation.
It's clearly sukha vedana, and sukha vedana originates from the physical, discussed in detail in many suttas of vedana samyutta SN 36.
Just as the dart sutta says, first one feels a physical pleasure sukha, then multiple darts of mental sukha follows.
The EBT jedi went out of there way to point out the physicality of sukha.
Look at SN 36.11, it's also in the vedana samyutta, and look at how passaddhi is treated. Unlike the 'vupasama' and 'nirodha' repetitions for the 9 gradual samadhi, the passadhi is only numbered 6! They deliberately withheld the arupa samadhis, to emphasize kāya and sukha vedana for the four jhanas and 7 awakening factors, are physical FIRST and foremost. mental sukha may follow dependent on that.

... kayassa sukhino. (SN 46.3, among about 50 other references).

Really! ?!?!

This is the usual extract:

Pītimanassa kāyo passambhati.
Passaddhakāyo sukhaṃ vediyati.
Sukhino cittaṃ samādhiyati.
Samāhite citte dhammā pātubhavanti.

With the pleasure (of the mano), the body becomes tranquil.
One tranquil in body experiences pleasure (of the citta).
A sukhino citta becomes established.
In a citta that is established (定), phenomena become manifest.
.
.

[Dhammanando]

how does that simile make any sense then? if piti is mentally originated, sukha is mentally originated, then what's the point of trying to differentiate them?

Because they are two distinct dhammas that have distinct cognitive functions: one having to do with active interest, zest, anticipation, relish and suchlike towards a desirable ārammaṇa; the other passively enjoying the ārammaṇa. To confuse them is to not see things as they really are.

the point of creating the simile is to help someone understand the difference between what parts of the four jhanas are physical and what parts are mentally originated.

That is what you may take to be its point, but your saying so above appears to be no more than a bald assertion. Moreover, it's a bald assertion that cannot possibly be faithful to the intended meaning of the framer of the simile. In the context of jhāna Buddhaghosa consistently takes kāya as referring to the body of mental factors.

As far as I know, the only exception to this is where he is explaining those sutta passages that speak of "suffusing one's whole body" with pīti and sukha. In this context kāya is taken as referring to one's physical frame, but it is also denied that it is pīti itself that suffuses the body. Since the physical locus of pīti and sukha is said to be the heart-base, they cannot literally suffuse the whole body and so the commentaries take the sutta as meaning that the body becomes suffused by mind-generated subtle rūpa dhammas that jhānic pīti and sukha generate.

Te Ab Vb theravada abhidhamma vibhanga clearly states in 7sb awakening factors, under sutta method kaya is physical, under abhidhamma method it's collection of mental aggregates. And since the standard four jhana formula is sutta, then sutta method would take precedence.

The Vibhaṅga's Sutta analysis reads:

Tattha katamo passaddhisambojjhaṅgo? Atthi kāyapassaddhi, atthi cittapassaddhi. yadapi kāyapassaddhi tadapi passaddhisambojjhaṅgo abhiññāya sambodhāya nibbānāya saṃvattati. Yadapi cittapassaddhi tadapi passaddhisambojjhaṅgo abhiññāya sambodhāya nibbānāya saṃvattati.

Therein what is calmness-awakening-factor? There is calmness of the body; there is calmness of consciousness. That which is calmness of body, that calmness-awakening-factor is for full knowledge, for awakening, for full emancipation also. That which is calmness of consciousness; that calmness-awakening-factor is for full knowledge, for awakening, for full emancipation also.

Its Abhidhamma analysis reads:

Tattha katamo passaddhisambojjhaṅgo? Yā vedanākkhandhassa saññākkhandhassa saṅkhārakkhandhassa viññāṇakkhandhassa passaddhi paṭippassaddhi passambhanā paṭippassambhanā paṭippassambhitattaṃ passaddhisambojjhaṅgo: ayaṃ vuccati ‘passaddhisambojjhaṅgo’

Therein what is calmness-awakening-factor? That which of the aggregate of feeling, of the aggregate of perception, of the aggregate of volitional activities, of the aggregate of consciousness is calmness, serenity, being calm, being serene, state of being serene, calmness-awakening-factor. This is called calmness-awakening-factor.

Are these the passages you are referring to? If so, where in the first passage does it say that kāya means the physical body? The commentary doesn't define it so. In fact it repeats the Saṃyutta Commentary's definition that I quoted in my last post.

[ToVincent]

pleasure (of the citta),

that part in parenthesis is your own interpolation.

No, that part refers to the next verse:
Sukhino cittaṃ samādhiyati.
A sukhino citta becomes established.
.
.