solving the murder mystery from 3rd jhāna

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
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frank k
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Re: solving the murder mystery from 3rd jhāna

Post by frank k »

Volo wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:28 pm
frank k wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:51 pm
Glossing the base of infinite space formula,
which is the samadhi attainment right above fourth jhana.
It shows that, if that is the attainment where one transcends sights, sounds, smells,....,
then it means in the 4th jhana, and first through 4th jhana,
one has NOT transcended sights, sounds, smells...,
i.e. the 5 sense faculties of the body are still active.
Could you quote the relevant passage? As far as I remember the stock formula for infinite space is talking about "surmounting the perceptions of forms". One can perceive forms in rūpa jhāna. For example ānāpānasati nimitta in ānāpānasati jhāna.
You're using the same corrupted logic Vism. and Buddhaghosa tries to use.
If you compare to how Vimuttimagga treats the earth kasina, and formless attainments versus the four jhanas, they interpret 'surmounting rupa' the same way. Rupa is the adjhatta/internal rupa of the physical body.

In a previous discussion I already referred you to a detailed audit where I expose the crimes of Vism. and Buddhaghosa, you obviously didn't read it or understand it.
Here it is again, which you probably wont read again, but others may be interested.
http://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/e ... ndex.html

Also in that audit, I examine how B. Gunaratana changed his views on Jhana, from one based on Vism, he is after all an ordained Sri Lankan monk, to his now correct understanding of jhana in line with the EBT (early buddhist texts). For those of you who don't know, B. Gunaratana is a meditation master who can do jhana either VRJ (vism. redefinition) or the correct EBT jhana. He ordained young, like in his teens or early twenties, and back then he had photographic memory. You think you understand Abhidhamma, do you think you understand it better than a monk who's studied and had perfect memory of what he studied for more than 50 years? And if he changed his views and saw the light, you still think Abhidhamma is infallible?
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frank k
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Re: solving the murder mystery from 3rd jhāna

Post by frank k »

Even if what you're saying there is true, it's not relevant to this thread.
What is relevant is whether the 5 senses are active and perceivable in the four jhanas.
ToVincent wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 5:03 am
Read at least the "KĀYA as BREATH" part (for Buddha's sake).
Holly cow! - Is it so hard to understand the Indian philosophy at the time of Buddha?
https://justpaste.it/57le2
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Re: solving the murder mystery from 3rd jhāna

Post by Volo »

frank k wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 1:56 pm
Volo wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:28 pm
frank k wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:51 pm
Glossing the base of infinite space formula,
which is the samadhi attainment right above fourth jhana.
It shows that, if that is the attainment where one transcends sights, sounds, smells,....,
then it means in the 4th jhana, and first through 4th jhana,
one has NOT transcended sights, sounds, smells...,
i.e. the 5 sense faculties of the body are still active.
Could you quote the relevant passage? As far as I remember the stock formula for infinite space is talking about "surmounting the perceptions of forms". One can perceive forms in rūpa jhāna. For example ānāpānasati nimitta in ānāpānasati jhāna.
You're using the same corrupted logic Vism. and Buddhaghosa tries to use.
If you compare to how Vimuttimagga treats the earth kasina, and formless attainments versus the four jhanas, they interpret 'surmounting rupa' the same way. Rupa is the adjhatta/internal rupa of the physical body.

In a previous discussion I already referred you to a detailed audit where I expose the crimes of Vism. and Buddhaghosa, you obviously didn't read it or understand it.
Here it is again, which you probably wont read again, but others may be interested.
http://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/e ... ndex.html

Also in that audit, I examine how B. Gunaratana changed his views on Jhana, from one based on Vism, he is after all an ordained Sri Lankan monk, to his now correct understanding of jhana in line with the EBT (early buddhist texts). For those of you who don't know, B. Gunaratana is a meditation master who can do jhana either VRJ (vism. redefinition) or the correct EBT jhana. He ordained young, like in his teens or early twenties, and back then he had photographic memory. You think you understand Abhidhamma, do you think you understand it better than a monk who's studied and had perfect memory of what he studied for more than 50 years? And if he changed his views and saw the light, you still think Abhidhamma is infallible?
Instead of spending time for writing all these irrelevant things you could answer a simple question (or copy-paste it from your blog if you think it's there).

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frank k
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Late Theravada crime against the Dhamma

Post by frank k »

https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... amma.html

excerpt:
Late Theravada crime against the Dhamma
In the EBT (early buddhist texts), and later non EBT scripture, when a distinction between mind and body is made, they do it the same way.
'citta' or 'mano' to represent 'mind',
in contrast to the anatomical body, 'kāya' or 'rūpa'.

Sutta passages in pali+english here to show some examples of that:
EBT Buddha making distinction between physical body and mind...
Non - EBT: making distinction between physical body and mind...
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ToVincent
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Re: solving the murder mystery from 3rd jhāna

Post by ToVincent »

frank k wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:15 pm
Even if what you're saying there is true, it's not relevant to this thread.
What is relevant is whether the 5 senses are active and perceivable in the four jhanas.
ToVincent wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 5:03 am
Read at least the "KĀYA as BREATH" part (for Buddha's sake).
...
https://justpaste.it/57le2
.
.
I wasn't saying that for you personally.

I had already adressed your question: "whether the 5 senses are active and perceivable in the four jhanas? " in:
https://justpaste.it/2veig

What one calls usually the 5th "jhana" is pretty clear about it:
2. with the vanishing of perceptions (based) upon the organs of senses (viz. ajjhattikāni āyatanāni [including mano])
2. paṭighasaññānaṃ atthaṅgamā.

SN 36.11 also states "For one who has attained the fourth jhana, in-breathing and out-breathing has been restrained, and subsided and have been tranquillized".
The problem comes from the fact that nirodha is often equated with cessation. However, nirodha (निरुध् nirudh [ ni-√ rudh) also means "restrain".

So there is first a gradual tranquilization of the āyatanāni (the fields of sensory experience) in the fourth jhana; then and only then, there is the vanishing of the āyatanāni in the fifth "jhana".
From there, one relies on (the "unpolluted") citta only, for anything that pertains to viññana, sañña and vedana - with a remnant of (the immaterial) breath (assāsapassāsā).
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
What kind of magic do you use?

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Re: solving the murder mystery from 3rd jhāna

Post by DooDoot »

frank k wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 1:48 pm
Even when Mahamoggallana heard sounds in the arupa samadhis, the Buddha called it "impure", he didn't say it disquailfied it from being an arupa samadhi, where Mogallana could drift in and out of hearing sounds or not.
Hi Frank. Could you quote the relevant passage? Which sutta/s does the above refer to? Thanks
frank k wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 1:56 pm
Here it is again, which you probably wont read again, but others may be interested.
http://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/e ... ndex.html

Jhāna in EBT
* In four jhānas, kāya, rupa refers to the flesh and blood anatomical body. Arupa means rupa (5 sense faculties) is divorced from mind. Vedana, sukha are experienced as sensations in the body.
* the body gradually fades into the background, from first through fourth jhāna.
* Low to moderate sounds, low to moderate body pain are possible to sense, but are generally also faded in the background.
* Loud sounds or strong body pain will most likely knock you out of the jhāna.
* The bliss of Piti and sukha are experienced in the body, it can be as strong as an intense full body orgasm that lasts hours.
Unlikely, few, if any, will be interested in the above, except to debunk it.

* In four jhānas, kāya refers the 'group' of aggregates that make up an experience. 'Rupa' refers to the flesh and blood anatomical body and its associated nervous system, when thoroughly calmed, breaks out into bliss. However, because the physical body is thoroughly calmed, the mind can no longer discern the breathing therefore can no longer discern the physical body. The mind's faculty of thought becomes one-pointed upon a mind-made mental image and can only feel the body's (rupa's) bliss in the brain.

*Arupa does not mean rupa (5 sense faculties) is divorced from mind. Arupa means there are no feelings thus objects that originate in the physical body that are objects of the meditation.

*Vedana, sukha are not experienced as sensations in the body. Vedana, sukha are sensations of the body experienced as sensations in the mind only or "brain" part of the rupa.

* The body disappears when the first jhāna is consummated.

* Low to moderate sounds, low to moderate body pain are impossible to sense

* Loud sounds will unlikely knock you out of the jhāna. There are suttas about monk in jhana and did not hear 500 carts go by.

* Strong body pain will most unlikely occur in the jhāna because the body is so tranquillised.

* If the bliss of Piti and sukha are experienced in the body & can be as strong as an intense full body orgasm that lasts hours; jhana would be extremely exhausting. I personally think anyone that compares jhana to orgasm has zero understanding of jhana. :pig:
One time, Pukkusa, I was staying near Ātumā in a threshing-barn. And on that occasion, when the rain-deva was raining, the rain-deva was pouring, lightning-streaks were shooting out, and a thunderbolt split (the air) not far from the threshing-house, two farmers—brothers—were killed, along with four oxen.

“Then a large crowd of people came out of Ātumā to where the two farmers—brothers—were killed, along with the four oxen. And on that occasion I, having come out of the threshing-barn, was doing walking meditation in front of the door to the threshing-barn. A certain man from the great crowd of people approached me and, on arrival, having bowed down to me, stood to one side. As he was standing there, I said to him, ‘Why, friend, has this great crowd of people gathered?’

“‘Just now, lord—when the rain-deva was raining, the rain-deva was pouring, lightning-streaks were shooting out, and a thunderbolt split (the air)—two farmers—brothers—were killed, along with four oxen. That’s why this great crowd of people has gathered. But you, lord: Where were you?’

“‘I was right here, friend.’

“‘But did you see anything?’

“‘No, friend, I didn’t.”

“‘But did you hear the sound?’

“‘No, friend, I didn’t.’

“‘But were you asleep?’

“‘No, friend, I wasn’t asleep.’

“‘But were you conscious?’

“‘Yes, friend.’

“‘Then, lord, being conscious & awake when the rain-deva was raining, the rain-deva was pouring, lightning-streaks were shooting out, and a thunderbolt split (the air), you neither saw anything nor heard a sound.’

“‘Yes, friend.’

“Then the thought occurred to that man, ‘How amazing! How astounding: the peaceful abiding by which those gone forth abide—in that, when the rain-deva was raining, the rain-deva was pouring, lightning-streaks were shooting out, and a thunderbolt split (the air), he would neither see them nor hear a sound!’ Having proclaimed immense conviction in me, he circumambulated me and then left.”

DN 16

‘So, sir, while conscious and awake you neither saw nor heard a sound as five hundred carts passed by right next to you?

‘So tvaṃ, bhante, saññī samāno jāgaro pañcamattāni sakaṭasatāni nissāya nissāya atikkantāni neva addasa, na pana
saddaṃ assosi;

Why sir, even your outer robe is covered with dust!’

apisu te, bhante, saṅghāṭi rajena okiṇṇā’ti?

‘Yes, friend.’

‘Evamāvuso’ti.

Then that person thought:

Atha kho, bhante, tassa purisassa etadahosi:

‘It’s incredible, it’s amazing! Those who have gone forth remain in such peaceful meditations,

‘acchariyaṃ vata bho, abbhutaṃ vata bho, santena vata bho pabbajitā vihārena viharanti.

https://suttacentral.net/dn16/en/sujato
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: solving the murder mystery from 3rd jhāna

Post by DooDoot »

frank k wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:15 pm
Even if what you're saying there is true, it's not relevant to this thread.
Its entirely relevant because it debunks your view 'kaya' means 'physical body'.
frank k wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:15 pm
Late Theravada crime against the Dhamma

In the EBT (early buddhist texts), and later non EBT scripture, when a distinction between mind and body is made, they do it the same way.

'citta' or 'mano' to represent 'mind',

in contrast to the anatomical body, 'kāya' or 'rūpa'.
The above is of course non-sense. See: ‘Kāya’ and ‘body’ in context. From DN 15:
Suppose there were none of the features, attributes, signs, and details by which the categories of mental or physical phenomena are found. Would either linguistic contact or impingement contact still be found?”

“Yehi, ānanda, ākārehi … pe … yehi uddesehi nāmakāyassa ca rūpakāyassa ca paññatti hoti, tesu ākāresu … pe … tesu
uddesesu asati api nu kho adhivacanasamphasso vā paṭighasamphasso vā paññāyethā”ti?

https://suttacentral.net/dn15/en/sujato
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: solving the murder mystery from 3rd jhāna

Post by frank k »

https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... irms.html
excerpt:
Comparison of Vism. and KN Pe confirms the crimes of Vism. in redefining Jhāna

Here is the full KN Pe four jhanas gloss, word commentary, based on B. Nanamoli's translation from the PTS. I highlight the parts that are relevant to mental/physical, 7sb awakening factors, and the number of jhana factors completely different than late Theravada's 'five jhana factors' scheme. I've added some comments to the highlights in curly braces { }. Their fantastic explanation of vitakka/vicara section of course speaks for itself, and is so explicit and detailed there's no way Vism. or B. Sujato could twist it into meaning "having mind glued to a visual kasina."

You can see the straight EBT (early buddhist text, pali) approach I used to establish which factors in jhana are mental and physical, are very similar, nearly the same as what they arrived at in KN Pe. I based my conclusion from AN 48.37 five vedana/indriya scheme, and 7 awakening factors frequently repeated sequence from SN 46.3.
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Re: solving the murder mystery from 3rd jhāna

Post by confusedlayman »

frank k wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:56 am
https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... irms.html
excerpt:
Comparison of Vism. and KN Pe confirms the crimes of Vism. in redefining Jhāna

Here is the full KN Pe four jhanas gloss, word commentary, based on B. Nanamoli's translation from the PTS. I highlight the parts that are relevant to mental/physical, 7sb awakening factors, and the number of jhana factors completely different than late Theravada's 'five jhana factors' scheme. I've added some comments to the highlights in curly braces { }. Their fantastic explanation of vitakka/vicara section of course speaks for itself, and is so explicit and detailed there's no way Vism. or B. Sujato could twist it into meaning "having mind glued to a visual kasina."

You can see the straight EBT (early buddhist text, pali) approach I used to establish which factors in jhana are mental and physical, are very similar, nearly the same as what they arrived at in KN Pe. I based my conclusion from AN 48.37 five vedana/indriya scheme, and 7 awakening factors frequently repeated sequence from SN 46.3.
hi frank,

this happens when u don't try to have personal experience but rely only on books. many buddhist teachers say many things but its all their experience not in reality for "you". if you have 5 sense information then u are under mara attack. since jhana has nothing to do with 5 sense, it is to be pursued. please attain jhana for yourself and see and it is not like orgasm. orgasm feel has nothing to do with jhana. jhana is completely different the Piti is completely different it is impossible to exp that using 5 sense. jhana is different than fully developed metta. so try it try it try it before u claim to know for sure.
Master said dont neglect concentration ... practice jhana "O dhamma wheel users! "

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Re: solving the murder mystery from 3rd jhāna

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Frank,
frank k wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:56 am
https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... irms.html
excerpt:
Comparison of Vism. and KN Pe confirms the crimes of Vism. in redefining Jhāna

Here is the full KN Pe four jhanas gloss, word commentary, based on B. Nanamoli's translation from the PTS. I highlight the parts that are relevant to mental/physical, 7sb awakening factors...
By excessive use of acronyms, abbreviations and hyperbole you're rendering your posts illegible or simply "not worth bothering with" by a large number of people, including experienced practitioners.

If you want to keep shouting into a black hole, continue constructing your posts in such an incongruent way.

If you want people to comprehend what you're saying (which is usually the point of communication), please reflect on your writing style and try harder to be comprehensible.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)

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Re: solving the murder mystery from 3rd jhāna

Post by DooDoot »

frank k wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:56 am
comparison of Vism. and KN Pe confirms the crimes of Vism. in redefining Jhāna
The above post appears to be a duplicate; for which I offered a refutation at this link.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: solving the murder mystery from 3rd jhāna

Post by frank k »

Thanks for the feedback Paul, but I doubt your suggestions will help. Though I will make an effort to expand out more acronyms in the future. You really think if I spell out Visuddhimagga and khuddaka nikaya petakopadesasdfsdf that's going to make people understand the topic better? The nature of the topic is technical, and there is just no easy way to explain it since it assumes a fair amount of background knowledge. As for hyperbole, some may think it's hyperbole, I think I'm understating the reality of the situation, and there is no happy medium or compromise.

retrofuturist wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:31 pm
Greetings Frank,
frank k wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:56 am
https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... irms.html
excerpt:
Comparison of Vism. and KN Pe confirms the crimes of Vism. in redefining Jhāna

Here is the full KN Pe four jhanas gloss, word commentary, based on B. Nanamoli's translation from the PTS. I highlight the parts that are relevant to mental/physical, 7sb awakening factors...
By excessive use of acronyms, abbreviations and hyperbole you're rendering your posts illegible or simply "not worth bothering with" by a large number of people, including experienced practitioners.

If you want to keep shouting into a black hole, continue constructing your posts in such an incongruent way.

If you want people to comprehend what you're saying (which is usually the point of communication), please reflect on your writing style and try harder to be comprehensible.

Metta,
Paul. :)
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Re: solving the murder mystery from 3rd jhāna

Post by suaimhneas »

I think SN41.6 and MN44 imply at least a very close relationship between the breath and kaya. However, a close relationship between vicara vitakka and vaca (speech), and between feeling&perception and citta (mind) is also implied (given descriptions of the speech, bodily and verbal formations). They would seem to be the core/foundation level of these faculties.

Perception&feeling is not the entirety of citta (a subset), but without those it ceases.
Similarly vicara vitakka (whatever precisely that is; please let's not get into that now ;) ) is not vaca but the base component.
Similiarly, the implications seems to be that breath is the key foundational component of kaya but, perhaps similarly, not its entirety (though maybe it's the last component standing before it ceases; doesn't seem surprising that it ceasing crops up in the fourth jhana).

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Re: solving the murder mystery from 3rd jhāna

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Frank,
frank k wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:55 pm
Thanks for the feedback Paul, but I doubt your suggestions will help. Though I will make an effort to expand out more acronyms in the future.
:thanks:
frank k wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:55 pm
You really think if I spell out Visuddhimagga and khuddaka nikaya petakopadesasdfsdf that's going to make people understand the topic better?
I think the less time people need to spend decoding your posts, the more likely they are to bother reading them. The more likely they are to read them, the more likely they are to understand them.

:ugeek:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)

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frank k
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Re: solving the murder mystery from 3rd jhāna

Post by frank k »

What are you driving at? Are you saying because the breath is a foundational component of body, it's ok for VIsm. and Ajahn Brahm and B. Brahmali to reinterpret step 3 of 16 steps breath meditation to substitute breath for kaya/body?

suaimhneas wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:17 pm
I think SN41.6 and MN44 imply at least a very close relationship between the breath and kaya. However, a close relationship between vicara vitakka and vaca (speech), and between feeling&perception and citta (mind) is also implied (given descriptions of the speech, bodily and verbal formations). They would seem to be the core/foundation level of these faculties.

Perception&feeling is not the entirety of citta (a subset), but without those it ceases.
Similarly vicara vitakka (whatever precisely that is; please let's not get into that now ;) ) is not vaca but the base component.
Similiarly, the implications seems to be that breath is the key foundational component of kaya but, perhaps similarly, not its entirety (though maybe it's the last component standing before it ceases; doesn't seem surprising that it ceasing crops up in the fourth jhana).
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