Are the "feeling faculties" in the Suttas belated Abhidhamma?

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
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Are the "feeling faculties" in the Suttas belated Abhidhamma?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:19 am

Dear sutta subforum

The Pali suttas contain the classification of the five faculties of feeling, which appear derived from a classification of two feelings, as follows:
And what are the two feelings?
Katamā ca, bhikkhave, dve vedanā?

Physical and mental.
Kāyikā ca cetasikā ca—

And what are the five feelings?
Katamā ca, bhikkhave, pañca vedanā?

The faculties of pleasure, pain, happiness, sadness, and equanimity. …
Sukhindriyaṃ, dukkhindriyaṃ, somanassindriyaṃ, domanassindriyaṃ, upekkhindriyaṃ—

https://suttacentral.net/sn36.22/en/sujato
It appears these teachings about 'feeling faculties (indriya)' might only be found in SN 36.22 and in SN 48.31-40.

Yesterday, I read SN 48.40 for the first time. While I found SN 48.40 useful for refuting FrankK's revisionism, I also found it to be questionable for the following reasons:

1. The four jhanas are called 'rupa jhana'. I assume this is so because the rapture (piti) & happiness (sukha) arises from the calming of the bodily formation and the associated dissolving of the mental sankharas (aka 'stress') previously stored within the physical body.

2. SN 48.40 appears to equate jhana rapture (piti) with sukhindriyassa; a physically originated feeling.

3. SN 48.40 appears to equate jhana happiness (sukha) with somanassindriyaṃ; a mentally orientated feeling.

4. If the above is true, it seems SN 48.40 deems 'jhana sukha' a mental reaction to the physical 'jhana rapture (piti)'.

5. If the above is true, it does not make sense to me because if sukha was a mental reaction to physical piti then the sukha, I imagine, would cease immediately upon the ceasing of the piti or, otherwise, not last very long.

6. Personally, I think rapture (piti) & happiness (sukha) of jhana should be of the same rupa-originated nature but merely differing in intensity. In other words, as the nama-rupa continues to calm in the progression of the jhanas, it seems logical and natural that rapture would fade into sukha and then sukha fade into equanimity.

Please discuss and/or kindly offer some references.

Thank you :smile:
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Re: Are the "feeling faculties" in the Suttas belated Abhidhamma?

Post by frank k » Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:01 pm

https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... utta.html

Early Abhidhamma material, much of it embedded into many EBT period suttas, are benign and useful. As long as they don't contradict EBT, there's no problem with it. But the later Abhidhamma material that contradicts EBT, then you have to decide which side you're going to take.
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Re: Are the "feeling faculties" in the Suttas belated Abhidhamma?

Post by auto » Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:00 pm

frank k wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:01 pm
https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... utta.html

Early Abhidhamma material, much of it embedded into many EBT period suttas, are benign and useful. As long as they don't contradict EBT, there's no problem with it. But the later Abhidhamma material that contradicts EBT, then you have to decide which side you're going to take.
mn44
https://suttacentral.net/mn44/en/sujato
Anything felt physically or mentally as painful or unpleasant.
Yaṃ kho, āvuso visākha, kāyikaṃ vā cetasikaṃ vā dukkhaṃ asātaṃ vedayitaṃ—This is painful feeling.ayaṃ dukkhā vedanā.
pleasant feeling can be painful.
mn44
“Pleasant feeling is pleasant when it remains and painful when it perishes.“Sukhā kho, āvuso visākha, vedanā ṭhitisukhā vipariṇāmadukkhā;
Painful feeling is painful when it remains and pleasant when it perishes.dukkhā vedanā ṭhitidukkhā vipariṇāmasukhā;
pleasant feeling can be painful when it changes to worse, is prolly the reason why there comes grief and which will be ceased at 2nd jhana.
When you sit comfortably and then pain arises, that is pleasant feeling gone worse.

is it from Visuddhimagga?:
187. For accordingly, during the first jhāna access, which has multiple adverting, there could be rearising of the [bodily] pain faculty49 due to contact with gadflies, flies, etc. or the discomfort of an uneven seat, though that pain faculty had already ceased, but not so during absorption. Or else, though it has ceased during access, it has not absolutely ceased there since it is not quite beaten out by opposition. But during absorption the whole body is showered with bliss owing to pervasion by happiness. And the pain faculty has absolutely ceased in one whose body is showered with bliss, since it is beaten out then by opposition.
where these ideas come from?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visuddhimagga
The Visuddhimagga (Pali; English: The Path of Purification), is the 'great treatise' on Theravada Buddhist doctrine written by Buddhaghosa approximately in the 5th Century in Sri Lanka. It is a manual condensing and systematizing the 5th century understanding and interpretation of the Buddhist path as maintained by the elders of the Mahavihara Monastery in Anuradhapura, Sri Lanka.
5th century understanding and interpretation.

https://suttacentral.net/sn48.40/en/sujato
‘The faculty of pain has arisen in me. And that has a foundation, a source, a condition, and a reason. ‘uppannaṃ kho me idaṃ dukkhindriyaṃ, tañca kho sanimittaṃ sanidānaṃ sasaṅkhāraṃ sappaccayaṃ.
i think the Sutta sn48.40 makes sense, moreso if to keep in mind the mn44 reasons.
And where does that faculty of pain that’s arisen cease without anything left over?
Kattha cuppannaṃ dukkhindriyaṃ aparisesaṃ nirujjhati?
It’s when a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected.
Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṃ savicāraṃ vivekajaṃ pītisukhaṃ paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati,

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Re: Are the "feeling faculties" in the Suttas belated Abhidhamma?

Post by retrofuturist » Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:13 pm

Greetings Frank,
frank k wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:01 pm
Early Abhidhamma material, much of it embedded into many EBT period suttas, are benign and useful.
How do you establish though that the causality went in that direction (i.e. from the Abhidhamma to Sutta)? What evidence supports this?

Given the respective timings of each set of works (i.e with the appearance of the Abhidhamma at Third Council), wouldn't it be more plausible that the seeds of the Abhidhamma were drawn from the suttas, rather than the other way around? It would seem that if you're going to claim otherwise, there's a certain burden of proof upon you to substantiate your position, if you expect it to be taken seriously.

:thanks:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: Are the "feeling faculties" in the Suttas belated Abhidhamma?

Post by sentinel » Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:44 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:19 am
In other words, as the nama-rupa continues to calm in the progression of the jhanas, it seems logical and natural that rapture would fade into sukha and then sukha fade into equanimity.

Please discuss and/or kindly offer some references.

Thank you :smile:
The faculties of pleasure, pain, happiness, sadness, and equanimity. …
Sukhindriyaṃ, dukkhindriyaṃ, somanassindriyaṃ, domanassindriyaṃ, upekkhindriyaṃ—
It appears the five feeling (faculties) was derived from three feeling or expansion of it .
I agree mostly . However , I wonder ,
where does the text says nama rupa being calm ? :shrug:
:buddha1:

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Re: Are the "feeling faculties" in the Suttas belated Abhidhamma?

Post by frank k » Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:21 am

Yes, of course suttas came first, Abhidhamma was originally based on the suttas. But a sutta like SN 48.40, when compared with agama EBT parallels which differ radically, not even compatible with EBT suttas, and then reading how Vism. uses that sutta to justify their claim that the body disappears before first jhana, among other radical changes, it's very obvious later Theravada Abhidhamma tampered with SN 48.40.
SN 48.40 is formulaic, as oral tradition suttas tend to be, and it's easy to tamper with if one has an evil agenda.
It only took me a few minutes to fix the sutta with corrections, because it just involved undoing the swapping out a correct standard jhana formula with a wrong one (the Abhidhamma tampering), no pali knowledge needed.
retrofuturist wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:13 pm

Given the respective timings of each set of works (i.e with the appearance of the Abhidhamma at Third Council), wouldn't it be more plausible that the seeds of the Abhidhamma were drawn from the suttas, rather than the other way around? It would seem that if you're going to claim otherwise, there's a certain burden of proof upon you to substantiate your position, if you expect it to be taken seriously.
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Re: Are the "feeling faculties" in the Suttas belated Abhidhamma?

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:23 am

Greetings Frank,

Thank you for explaining your position and the reasoning behind it.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: Are the "feeling faculties" in the Suttas belated Abhidhamma?

Post by frank k » Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:27 am

auto wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:00 pm

i think the Sutta sn48.40 makes sense, moreso if to keep in mind the mn44 reasons.
And where does that faculty of pain that’s arisen cease without anything left over?
Kattha cuppannaṃ dukkhindriyaṃ aparisesaṃ nirujjhati?
It’s when a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected.
Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṃ savicāraṃ vivekajaṃ pītisukhaṃ paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati,
That contradicts not just the basic first jhana formula, but also a sutta where Sariputta (the patron saint of Abhidhamma) explicitly says dukkha indriya before first jhana.
https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... utta.html
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Re: Are the "feeling faculties" in the Suttas belated Abhidhamma?

Post by Pulsar » Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:37 am

frank k wrote
Yes, of course suttas came first, Abhidhamma was originally based on the suttas. But a sutta like SN 48.40, when compared with agama EBT parallels which differ radically, not even compatible with EBT suttas, and then reading how Vism. uses that sutta to justify their claim that the body disappears before first jhana, among other radical changes, it's very obvious later Theravada Abhidhamma tampered with SN 48.40.  
SN 48.40 is formulaic, as oral tradition suttas tend to be, and it's easy to tamper with if one has an evil agenda.
It only took me a few minutes to fix the sutta with corrections, because it just involved undoing the swapping out a correct standard jhana formula with a wrong one (the Abhidhamma tampering), no pali knowledge needed
Wow that you can do that it blows me away...
I sometimes see the tampered places, but I could never do a good job as you appear to do. I've read MN 44 is a later construct. I speculate it to be so because of the way it defines bodily formation as in breathing and out breathing,  I've also read that buddha was never interested in body or bodily functions as such,
only in how an individual dealt with information entry, based on the body, that is the sense bases, contacts made therein.
It makes a lot of sense to me, of course this relates to how Theravadins dealt with the 1st Satipatthana too (VSM guilty) It should be the events or contacts at the sense bases that folks should be meditating upon, not the parts of the anatomical body. This makes a radical change to the way one meditates on kayanupassana.
But to get back to illegal suttas or deformed suttas, or insanely corrupted suttas, dear frank k, can you pl. start a thread on that? I've read that the entire Citta Samyutta is a later product. I can easily see that SN 41.6 (kambhu sutta) is a knockoff product of MN 44 :candle:

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Re: Are the "feeling faculties" in the Suttas belated Abhidhamma?

Post by DooDoot » Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:08 pm

Pulsar wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:37 am
I've read MN 44 is a later construct. I speculate it to be so because of the way it defines bodily formation as in breathing and out breathing...
When the breathing is long & calm, the body is calm. When the breathing is short & agitated, the body is stressed. When the body cannot breathe, the body is disabled & can get high blood pressure. When the breath ends via suffocation, the body dies. If a dead body is given breath resuscitation, the body can return to life. Yet you think the term "kaya sankhara" ("body conditioner") is fake? :roll:

The term "kaya sankhara" obviously does not mean "bodily formation". It is interesting how some place total faith in utterly nonsensical translations or gobbledygook (that do not even have any clear meaning in the English language) rather than place faith in reality.

MN 44 says:
Pubbe kho, āvuso visākha, vitakketvā vicāretvā pacchā vācaṃ bhindati, tasmā vitakkavicārā vacīsaṅkhāro.

Having first directed one's thoughts and made an evaluation, one then breaks out into speech. That's why directed thought & evaluation are verbal fabricators.

MN 44
The above makes perfect sense. Simply change the translation of sankhara from "condition" or "fabrication" to "conditioner" or "fabricator" and all doubt is overcome. :smile:
Pulsar wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:37 am
I can easily see that SN 41.6 (kambhu sutta) is a knockoff product of MN 44 :candle:
The term "kaya sankhara" is also used in the Anapanasati Sutta. If you do not believe "kaya sankhara" means "the breathing" then you must believe the body can be calmed in Step 4 of Anapanasati without relying on calming the breathing. If this is true, i.e., if the body can be calmed without calming the breathing, then why does Anapanasati centre on knowing breathing? :shrug:

:candle: :roll:
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Re: Are the "feeling faculties" in the Suttas belated Abhidhamma?

Post by auto » Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:50 pm

frank k wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:27 am
auto wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:00 pm

i think the Sutta sn48.40 makes sense, moreso if to keep in mind the mn44 reasons.
And where does that faculty of pain that’s arisen cease without anything left over?
Kattha cuppannaṃ dukkhindriyaṃ aparisesaṃ nirujjhati?
It’s when a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected.
Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṃ savicāraṃ vivekajaṃ pītisukhaṃ paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati,
That contradicts not just the basic first jhana formula, but also a sutta where Sariputta (the patron saint of Abhidhamma) explicitly says dukkha indriya before first jhana.
https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... utta.html
mn43
“But what, reverend, is the first absorption?”“Katamaṃ panāvuso, paṭhamaṃ jhānan”ti?

“Reverend, it’s when a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected.“Idhāvuso, bhikkhu vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṃ savicāraṃ vivekajaṃ pītisukhaṃ paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati—This is called the first absorption.”idaṃ vuccati, āvuso, paṭhamaṃ jhānan”ti.
its first jhana and the sn 48.40 doesn't fail on that front.

sn48.40
It’s when a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṃ savicāraṃ vivekajaṃ pītisukhaṃ paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati,
mn 44
Take a mendicant who, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected.Idhāvuso visākha, bhikkhu vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṃ savicāraṃ vivekajaṃ pītisukhaṃ paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati.

With this they give up greed, and the underlying tendency to greed does not lie within that.Rāgaṃ tena pajahati, na tattha rāgānusayo anuseti.
mn 43
Four conditions are necessary to attain the neutral release of the heart.“Cattāro kho, āvuso, paccayā adukkhamasukhāya cetovimuttiyā samāpattiyā.

Giving up pleasure and pain, and ending former happiness and sadness, a mendicant enters and remains in the fourth absorption, without pleasure or pain, with pure equanimity and mindfulness.Idhāvuso, bhikkhu sukhassa ca pahānā dukkhassa ca pahānā pubbeva somanassadomanassānaṃ atthaṅgamā adukkhamasukhaṃ upekkhāsatipārisuddhiṃ catutthaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati.
your issue seem to be with the extra sentences what use stock jhana equation like this:

sn48.40
And where does that faculty of pain that’s arisen cease without anything left over? Kattha cuppannaṃ dukkhindriyaṃ aparisesaṃ nirujjhati?
what you do is argue amongst the variables that the variables contradict and then call Sutta corrupt because your chosen variable is the etalon.

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Re: Are the "feeling faculties" in the Suttas belated Abhidhamma?

Post by auto » Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:54 pm

sn48.40 says
And where does that faculty of pain that’s arisen cease without anything left over? Kattha cuppannaṃ dukkhindriyaṃ aparisesaṃ nirujjhati?
It’s when a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected.
if rapture and bliss arise there is no more pain faculty.

https://suttacentral.net/sn48.37/en/sujato
And what is the faculty of pain? Katamañca, bhikkhave, dukkhindriyaṃ? Physical pain, physical displeasure, the painful, unpleasant feeling that’s born from physical contact.
these above things are the reason there is faculty of pain, but when there is piti and sukha there can't be a faculty of pain.

the 3rd jhana,
And where does that faculty of pleasure that’s arisen cease without anything left over? Kattha cuppannaṃ sukhindriyaṃ aparisesaṃ nirujjhati?

It’s when, with the fading away of rapture, a mendicant enters and remains in the third absorption, where they meditate with equanimity, mindful and aware, personally experiencing the bliss of which the noble ones declare, ‘Equanimous and mindful, one meditates in bliss.’
i get it, it contradicts the standard jhana line of the sukha felt with the body.

So the pleasure is not felt(as first person) with the body. The bliss is mental what is experienced. That is the main issue i think. well here you are, its actually mental. Mental pleasure is not physical pleasure hence no faculty of pleasure there is instead a faculty of happiness which is mental.

the an5.176
At a time when a noble disciple enters and dwells in the rapture of seclusion, five things aren’t present in him.
The pain and sadness connected with sensual pleasures.
The pleasure and happiness connected with sensual pleasures.
it doesn't contradict with sn 48.40, rupa jhana is rupa jhana there is no kāma
Last edited by auto on Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Are the "feeling faculties" in the Suttas belated Abhidhamma?

Post by frank k » Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:10 pm

auto wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:50 pm
sn48.40
And where does that faculty of pain that’s arisen cease without anything left over? Kattha cuppannaṃ dukkhindriyaṃ aparisesaṃ nirujjhati?
what you do is argue amongst the variables that the variables contradict and then call Sutta corrupt because your chosen variable is the etalon.
Nothing to do with chosen word of translation. You didn't read the link I referred you to.
I won't continue discussion with you if you keep referring to B. sujato's heinously wrong translations of the 4 jhanas to make your points. You don't have to use my translation, you can use any of the other professional translators that translate the 4 jhanas correctly. Thanissaro, B. Bodhi, Rupert Gethin the President of Pali Text Society, are good ones to rely on, who translate according to EBT.

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Re: Are the "feeling faculties" in the Suttas belated Abhidhamma?

Post by frank k » Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:16 pm

Pulsar wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:37 am
But to get back to illegal suttas or deformed suttas, or insanely corrupted suttas, dear frank k, can you pl. start a thread on that? I've read that the entire Citta Samyutta is a later product. I can easily see that SN 41.6 (kambhu sutta) is a knockoff product of MN 44 :candle:
More likely that SN 41.6 was earlier, and MN 44 was derived from that. The catechism style of MN 43 and MN 44, and that the suttas are not spoken by the Buddha, are pretty good indicators of some lateness. But all that doesn't mean it isn't legitimate Dhamma. Ultimately we still have to internally filter everything through 4 great standards (AN 4.180) to see if something is genuine DHamma vinaya.
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Re: Are the "feeling faculties" in the Suttas belated Abhidhamma?

Post by auto » Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:33 pm

frank k wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:10 pm
auto wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:50 pm
sn48.40
And where does that faculty of pain that’s arisen cease without anything left over? Kattha cuppannaṃ dukkhindriyaṃ aparisesaṃ nirujjhati?
what you do is argue amongst the variables that the variables contradict and then call Sutta corrupt because your chosen variable is the etalon.
Nothing to do with chosen word of translation. You didn't read the link I referred you to.
I won't continue discussion with you if you keep referring to B. sujato's heinously wrong translations of the 4 jhanas to make your points. You don't have to use my translation, you can use any of the other professional translators that translate the 4 jhanas correctly. Thanissaro, B. Bodhi, Rupert Gethin the President of Pali Text Society, are good ones to rely on, who translate according to EBT.

http://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/v ... ndex.html
..
Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṃ savicāraṃ vivekajaṃ pītisukhaṃ paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati,
is unchanged and same regardless to the changings of the themes around it. You could ask where the XX ceases to exists and then write this,
Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṃ savicāraṃ vivekajaṃ pītisukhaṃ paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati,
now if i miss the point then say again what is it what makes you to think sn 48.40 is corrupt.

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in your interpretations of the sukha is bodily. But that is not what defines the indriya in 3rd jhana, indriya is defined by the 'upekkhako satimā sukhavihārī’ti..and it is mental.

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