What exactly does the Pali term "parinibbāyino" mean ????

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What exactly does the Pali term "parinibbāyino" mean ????

Post by DooDoot » Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:31 am

Dear Pali gurus

I am examining the stock definition of a Non-Returner, as follows:
In this Saṅgha there are mendicants who, with the ending of the five lower fetters are reborn/arisen spontaneously. They are extinguished there, and are not liable to return from that world.

Santi, bhikkhave, bhikkhū imasmiṃ bhikkhusaṃghe pañcannaṃ orambhāgiyānaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā opapātikā tattha parinibbāyino anāvattidhammā tasmā lokā—
Following the various Sutta Central links to the term "parinibbāyino" finds:
parinibbāyi
aor. of parinibbāti
Aorist (/ˈeɪərɪst/; abbreviated aor) verb forms usually express perfective aspect and refer to past events, similar to a preterite. :?
parinibbāti
pari + ni + vā + a

to be completed, perfected in any work or art, e.g. of a trained horse MN.i.446.

pp parinibbuto (q.v.). Caus. parinibbāpeti (q.v.).
parinibbāpeti

to bring to complete coolness

pari + nibbāpeti

https://suttacentral.net/define/parinibb%C4%81peti
parinibbuta
adjective
completely calmed, at peace, at rest

pari + nibbuta

https://suttacentral.net/define/parinibbuta
parinibbāna

pari + nibbāna
nibbāpeti

ni + vā + e
Although I am unable to distinguish the words above, SN 6.15 & DN 16 appear to distinguish between 'parinibbāyi' & 'parinibbānā', where 'parinibbāyi' might be a verb and 'parinibbānā' is an event/noun:
Then he entered the fourth absorption. Emerging from that the Buddha immediately became fully extinguished.

Catutthā jhānā vuṭṭhahitvā samanantaraṃ bhagavā parinibbāyi.

When the Buddha became fully extinguished, along with the full extinguishment, Brahmā Sahampati recited this verse:

Parinibbute bhagavati saha parinibbānā brahmā sahampati imaṃ gāthaṃ abhāsi:


https://suttacentral.net/sn6.15/en/sujato
The word 'parinibbāyati' is found in many suttas refering to here-&-now Nibbana:
Meditating in this way, they don’t grasp at anything in the world.

So tāsu vedanāsu aniccānupassī viharanto, virāgānupassī viharanto, nirodhānupassī viharanto, paṭinissaggānupassī viharanto na kiñci loke upādiyati.

Not grasping, they’re not anxious. Not being anxious, they personally become extinguished.

Anupādiyaṃ na paritassati, aparitassaṃ paccattaññeva parinibbāyati:
A mendicant free of grasping becomes extinguished.

Anupādāno, devānaminda, bhikkhu parinibbāyati … pe ….

https://suttacentral.net/sn35.118/en/sujato
nibbāyati
ni + vā + ya
ceases to exist; becomes cool.
Because 'parinibbāyati' can occur in the here-&-now, I sense it is not inherently related to Parinibbānā (in the meaning of anupādisesāya nibbānadhātu).

Therefore, in the stock definition of a Non-Returner, I sense the term "parinibbāyino" may not refer to the final attainment of here-&-now Nibbana (upādisesāya nibbānadhātu) or Parinibbānā (anupādisesāya nibbānadhātu).

AN 10.64 is an interesting sutta. It appears to say stream-enterers, once-returners and Arahant complete their respective paths "here" ("idha"). Where as non-returners complete their path (but not the path of Arahantship) "abandoning (vihāya") here (idha)". About five non-returners, AN 10.64 says:
Which five conclude their path after leaving this realm behind?
Katamesaṃ pañcannaṃ idha vihāya niṭṭhā?

The one who is extinguished between one life and the next [in the interval; while travelling], the one who is extinguished upon landing, the one who is extinguished without extra effort, the one who is extinguished with extra effort, and the one who heads upstream, going to the Akaniṭṭha realm.

Antarāparinibbāyissa, upahaccaparinibbāyissa, asaṅkhāraparinibbāyissa, sasaṅkhāraparinibbāyissa, uddhaṃsotassa akaniṭṭhagāmino—

https://suttacentral.net/an10.64/en/sujato
"Parinibbāyi" is used in each five situations above. My sense is it does not refer to final Nibbana because AN 10.64 says the Arahant Path is finished "here" ("idha").

OK. I will stop writing for now. However, I sense the "parinibbāyi" of a Non-Returner does not refer to Nibbana but refers to some lesser type of "cooling"; such as the purity of the 4th jhana or an immaterial realm.

:reading:
Last edited by DooDoot on Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What exactly does the Pali term "parinibbāyino" mean ????

Post by DooDoot » Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:44 am

Also, I speculate (contrary to the norm) a Non-Returner has not "uprooted" the underlying tendency of sensual desire :shock: Instead, I sense the "fetter" of sensual desire is just a fetter in meditation, which cannot ever occur to a Non-Returner in meditation. I say this because the enlightenment path of an Arahant includes the following:
When my mind had become immersed in samādhi like this—purified, bright, flawless, rid of corruptions, pliable, workable, steady, and imperturbable—I extended it toward knowledge of the ending of defilements.

So evaṃ samāhite citte parisuddhe pariyodāte anaṅgaṇe vigatūpakkilese mudubhūte kammaniye ṭhite āneñjappatte āsavānaṃ khayañāṇāya cittaṃ abhininnāmesiṃ.

I truly understood: ‘This is suffering’ … ‘This is the origin of suffering’ … ‘This is the cessation of suffering’ … ‘This is the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering’.

So ‘idaṃ dukkhan’ti yathābhūtaṃ abbhaññāsiṃ, ‘ayaṃ dukkhasamudayo’ti yathābhūtaṃ abbhaññāsiṃ, ‘ayaṃ dukkhanirodho’ti yathābhūtaṃ abbhaññāsiṃ, ‘ayaṃ dukkhanirodhagāminī paṭipadā’ti yathābhūtaṃ abbhaññāsiṃ.

I truly understood: ‘These are defilements’ … ‘This is the origin of defilements’ … ‘This is the cessation of defilements’ … ‘This is the practice that leads to the cessation of defilements’.

‘Ime āsavā’ti yathābhūtaṃ abbhaññāsiṃ, ‘ayaṃ āsavasamudayo’ti yathābhūtaṃ abbhaññāsiṃ, ‘ayaṃ āsavanirodho’ti yathābhūtaṃ abbhaññāsiṃ, ‘ayaṃ āsavanirodhagāminī paṭipadā’ti yathābhūtaṃ abbhaññāsiṃ.

Knowing and seeing like this, my mind was freed from the defilements of sensuality, desire to be reborn, and ignorance.

Tassa me evaṃ jānato evaṃ passato kāmāsavāpi cittaṃ vimuccittha, bhavāsavāpi cittaṃ vimuccittha, avijjāsavāpi cittaṃ vimuccittha.

When it was freed, I knew it was freed.

Vimuttasmiṃ vimuttamiti ñāṇaṃ ahosi.

https://suttacentral.net/mn4/en/sujato
If sensuality can never arise upon attainment of Non-Return, how does a practitioner for Arahantship discern the arising or origination of the asava of sensuality, as described above? :shrug:
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Re: What exactly does the Pali term "parinibbāyino" mean ????

Post by Dhammanando » Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:33 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:31 am
Following the various Sutta Central links to the term "parinibbāyino" finds:
parinibbāyi

aor. of parinibbāti
Aorist (/ˈeɪərɪst/; abbreviated aor) verb forms usually express
The aorist verb parinibbāyi isn't relevant here.

Parinibbāyino is the plural of the noun parinibbāyī, though in the PTS Dictionary it's given as parinibbāyin:
Parinibbāyin [fr. parinibbāyati] one who attains Parinibbāna. Of the 2 meanings registered under parinibbāna we find No. 1 only in a very restricted use, when taken in both senses of sa-and an-upādisesa parinibbāna; e. g. at A ii.155 sq., where the distinction is made between a sa-saṅkhāra p. and an a-saṅkhāra p., as these two terms also occur in the fivefold classification of 'Never-returners' (i. e. those who are not reborn) viz. antarā-parinibbāyin, upahacca°, sasaṅkhāra°, uddhaṃsota, akaniṭṭhagāmin. Thus at D iii.237; S v.201, 237; A i.233; iv.14, 71 sq., 146, 380; v.120; Pug 16, 17. —2. In the sense of Parinibbāna No. 2 (i. e. sa-upādisesa p.) we find parinibbāyin almost as an equivalent of arahant in two combns, viz. (a) tattha° (always combd with opapātika, i. e. above the ordinary cause of birth) [cp. BSk. tatra-parinirvāyin anāgāmin Divy 533]. It is also invariably combd with anāvattidhamma, e. g. at D i.156; iii.108, 132; M ii.56, 146; A i.232; 245, 290; ii.5, 89, 238; iv.12, 399, 423; v.343; S v.346 (cp. 406), 357; Pug 16, 62, 83. See also Kvu trsl. 742. —(b) antara° [cp. BSk. antarāparinirvāyin MVastu i.33] one who passes away in the middle of his term of life in a particular heaven; an Anāgāmin (cp. Bdhgh's expln at PugA 198 as 'āyuvemajjhassa antarā yeva parinibbāyanato a. p.') S v.69=A iv.70; S v.201=204, 237, 285, 314, 378; A ii.134; Ps i.161; Pug 16; Nett 190 (cp. A iv.380). —
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

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Re: What exactly does the Pali term "parinibbāyino" mean ????

Post by zerotime » Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:55 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:44 am
If sensuality can never arise upon attainment of Non-Return, how does a practitioner for Arahantship discern the arising or origination of the asava of sensuality, as described above? :shrug:
probably before it should exist the knowledge of the fabrication

"[Again, the Uposatha of the Noble Ones] is the cleansing of the defiled mind through the proper technique. And how is the defiled mind cleansed through the proper technique?
[...]
"Where consciousness lands and increases, there is the alighting of name-&-form. Where there is the alighting of name-&-form, there is the growth of fabrications. Where there is the growth of fabrications, there is the production of renewed becoming in the future."


https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

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Re: What exactly does the Pali term "parinibbāyino" mean ????

Post by Volo » Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:30 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:31 am
Therefore, in the stock definition of a Non-Returner, I sense the term "parinibbāyino" may not refer to the final attainment of here-&-now Nibbana (upādisesāya nibbānadhātu) or Parinibbānā (anupādisesāya nibbānadhātu).
Do you mean it doesn't refer neither to Nibbāna before death nor after death? I don't see, why.
My sense is it does not refer to final Nibbana because AN 10.64 says the Arahant Path is finished "here" ("idha").
As K. R. Norman pointed out (Collected papers, VI, p. 9-30, Mistaken ideas about nibbāna), parinibbāna is basically a synonyms of nibbāna, it can refer to both saupādisesa and anupādisesa Nibbāna.
If sensuality can never arise upon attainment of Non-Return, how does a practitioner for Arahantship discern the arising or origination of the asava of sensuality, as described above?
Why do you think he was an anagamin at that time?

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Re: What exactly does the Pali term "parinibbāyino" mean ????

Post by pitakele » Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:31 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:44 am
If sensuality can never arise upon attainment of Non-Return, how does a practitioner for Arahantship discern the arising or origination of the asava of sensuality, as described above?
This is a quote from the Buddha to be? To my understanding, he is does not say he has reached Ānāgāmîtā here, or anywhere else in the suttas. To my knowledge, the Buddha never talks about himself with reference to the stages prior to the goal.
now here = nowhere

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Re: What exactly does the Pali term "parinibbāyino" mean ????

Post by DooDoot » Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:46 pm

Volo wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:30 pm
DooDoot wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:31 am
Therefore, in the stock definition of a Non-Returner, I sense the term "parinibbāyino" may not refer to the final attainment of here-&-now Nibbana (upādisesāya nibbānadhātu) or Parinibbānā (anupādisesāya nibbānadhātu).
Do you mean it doesn't refer neither to Nibbāna before death nor after death? I don't see, why.
My sense is it does not refer to final Nibbana because AN 10.64 says the Arahant Path is finished "here" ("idha").
As K. R. Norman pointed out (Collected papers, VI, p. 9-30, Mistaken ideas about nibbāna), parinibbāna is basically a synonyms of nibbāna, it can refer to both saupādisesa and anupādisesa Nibbāna.
If sensuality can never arise upon attainment of Non-Return, how does a practitioner for Arahantship discern the arising or origination of the asava of sensuality, as described above?
Why do you think he was an anagamin at that time?
Awakening from sleep, I reject my FrankKian Revolutionary Speculative Theory :thumbsup: . As posted elsewhere, Iti 96 defines a Non-Returner as freed from the bond of sensual desire but still bound by the bond of becoming:
Kāmayogavisaṃyutto, bhikkhave, bhavayogayutto anāgāmī hoti anāgantā itthattaṃ.

One freed from the bond of sensual desire but still bound by the bond of being is a non-returner, one who does not come back to this state.

https://suttacentral.net/iti96/en/ireland
Consistent with my personal view of SN 22.79 (as translated by Bhikkhus Buddhadasa & Bodhi), the Non-Returner reaches Arahantship via the Three Knowledges. Therefore, there is no need for the Path of Arahantship to return to any here-&-now sensuality.

The 3rd Knowledge of comprehending the arising & ceasing of suffering & the eruptions (asava) is dependent upon the 1st and 2nd Knowledges. The 1st Knowledge is recollecting "past abodes" or "adherences", as follows (plus using Divine Eye, when available, the 2nd Knowledge is seeing the moral rise & fall of beings dependent on their kamma):
At Savatthi. “Bhikkhus, those ascetics and brahmins who recollect their manifold past abodes all recollect the five aggregates subject to clinging or a certain one among them. What five?

“When recollecting thus, bhikkhus: ‘I had such form in the past,’ it is just form that one recollects. When recollecting: ‘I had such a feeling in the past,’ it is just feeling that one recollects. When recollecting: ‘I had such a perception in the past,’ it is just perception that one recollects. When recollecting: ‘I had such volitional formations in the past,’ it is just volitional formations that one recollects. When recollecting: ‘I had such consciousness in the past,’ it is just consciousness that one recollects.

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.79/en/bodhi
Therefore, my impression is, per AN 10.64, the Non-Returner Path is completed with the completion of the 4th or higher jhana. Then, from the 4th jhana, per the stock definition, the Non-Returner will reach Arahantship or Parinibbāyino without having to return back to sensuality but directing the 4th jhana to the Three Knowledges. In other words, the Non-Returner uses "recollection of past arisings" to fully comprehend the arising & ceasing of suffering & the asava.

:mrgreen:
Last edited by DooDoot on Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:22 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: What exactly does the Pali term "parinibbāyino" mean ????

Post by cappuccino » Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:48 pm

DooDoot wrote: the Non-Returner reaches Arahantship via the Three Knowledges.
via wisdom alone, possibly

why make it so difficult

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Re: What exactly does the Pali term "parinibbāyino" mean ????

Post by DooDoot » Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:19 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:48 pm
why make it so difficult
So, attempting to complete my puzzle requires a review of Once-Returner, as I previously attempted, here: Does "sakadāgāmī" really mean "once-returner" ???. The Once-Returner is defined as follows:
In this Saṅgha there are mendicants who, with the ending of three fetters, and the weakening of greed, hate, and delusion, are once-returners. They come back to this world once only, then make an end of suffering.

Santi, bhikkhave, bhikkhū imasmiṃ bhikkhusaṃghe tiṇṇaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā rāgadosamohānaṃ tanuttā sakadāgāmino sakideva imaṃ lokaṃ āgantvā dukkhassantaṃ karissanti—
The unique term I wish to examine above is 'dukkhassantaṃ'. SN 56.32 & 56.44, which include the rare & unique term 'dukkhassantaṃ', say:
After truly comprehending the noble truths of suffering, its origin, its cessation, and the path, I will completely make an end of suffering.’

‘Having made the breakthrough to the noble truth of suffering as it really is… I will completely make an end to suffering’

'Having broken through to the noble truth of stress as it actually is present, having broken through to the noble truth of the origination of stress... the cessation of stress... the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress, as it actually is present, I will bring about the right ending of stress,'

‘ahaṃ dukkhaṃ ariyasaccaṃ yathābhūtaṃ abhisamecca … pe … dukkhanirodhagāminiṃ paṭipadaṃ ariyasaccaṃ yathābhūtaṃ abhisamecca sammā dukkhassantaṃ karissāmī’ti—

https://suttacentral.net/sn56.44/en/sujato
https://suttacentral.net/sn56.44/en/bodhi
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Therefore, :woohoo: , my new revolutionary view is:

1. The Once-Returner is called "Once-Returner" because they must directly return to the realm/world (imaṃ lokaṃ) of suffering, greed, hatred & delusion to directly make a breakthrough in realising the Four Noble Truths. To make their breakthrough, the Once-Returner must experience or contemplate real here-&-now craving & real here-&-now dukkha & their cessation.

2. Where as the Non-Returner does not directly return to the direct world of suffering but attains Arahantship/Parinibbāyino via "recollecting the past arisings of adherences & births" ("pubbenivāsaṃ
anussaramānā'), as described in SN 22.79, as translated by Bhikkhus Buddhadasa & Bodhi:
At Savatthi. “Bhikkhus, those ascetics and brahmins who recollect their manifold past abodes all recollect the five aggregates subject to clinging or a certain one among them. What five?

“When recollecting thus, bhikkhus: ‘I had such form in the past,’ it is just form that one recollects. When recollecting: ‘I had such a feeling in the past,’ it is just feeling that one recollects. When recollecting: ‘I had such a perception in the past,’ it is just perception that one recollects. When recollecting: ‘I had such volitional formations in the past,’ it is just volitional formations that one recollects. When recollecting: ‘I had such consciousness in the past,’ it is just consciousness that one recollects.

“What do you think, bhikkhus, is form permanent or impermanent? … Is feeling … perception … volitional formations … consciousness permanent or impermanent?”—“Impermanent, venerable sir.”—“Is what is impermanent suffering or happiness?”—“Suffering, venerable sir.”—“Is what is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change fit to be regarded thus: ‘This is mine, this I am, this is my self’?”—“No, venerable sir.”

“Therefore, bhikkhus, any kind of form whatsoever … Any kind of feeling whatsoever … Any kind of perception whatsoever … Any kind of volitional formations whatsoever … Any kind of consciousness whatsoever, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near, all consciousness should be seen as it really is with correct wisdom thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.79/en/bodhi
Last edited by DooDoot on Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What exactly does the Pali term "parinibbāyino" mean ????

Post by cappuccino » Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:26 pm

:candle:
Last edited by cappuccino on Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What exactly does the Pali term "parinibbāyino" mean ????

Post by Nicolas » Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:26 pm

The Susimaparibbājaka Sutta (SN 12.70) is an example of arahants who do not have two of the three higher knowledges.

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Re: What exactly does the Pali term "parinibbāyino" mean ????

Post by DooDoot » Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:33 pm

Nicolas wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:26 pm
The Susimaparibbājaka Sutta (SN 12.70) is an example of arahants who do not have two of the three higher knowledges.
Very true. Excellent point. However, I disagree. Susīma was a puthujjana and his view of "pubbenivāsaṃ anussaramānā" was puthujjana rather than the right view described in SN 22.79. Therefore, the Arahant bhikkhus in SN 12.70 did not say "yes" to Susīma, due to his worldly view. It seems clear by SN 22.79 that "pubbenivāsaṃ anussaramānā" does not mean "recollecting past lives". Also of note, the word "nivāsaṃ" does not mean "lives". Also, in the framework of the Three Knowledges, no special psychic power is referred to when doing "pubbenivāsaṃ anussaramānā" (unlike the 2nd Knowledge, which uses Divine Eye).

Possibly you could post more suttas about arahants, possibly Sariputta, who say they did not have the 1st Knowledge. But per the description in SN 22.79, it seems "pubbenivāsaṃ anussaramānā" only requires an ordinary clear mind rather than psychic powers.

:thanks:
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Re: What exactly does the Pali term "parinibbāyino" mean ????

Post by Nicolas » Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:47 pm

Regardless of whether it refers to past "lives", this recollection can potentially go far into the past, further into the past than one's physical birth:
Brahmajāla Sutta (DN 1) wrote: Herein, bhikkhus, a certain recluse or brahmin, by means of ardour, endeavour, application, diligence, and right reflection, attains to such a degree of mental concentration that with his mind thus concentrated he recollects his numerous [pubbenivāsaṃ]: that is, (he recollects his [pubbenivāsaṃ] throughout) one aeon of world-contraction and expansion, throughout two, three, four, five, or ten aeons of world-contraction and expansion. (He recalls:) ‘Then I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance; such was my food, such my experience of pleasure and pain, such my span of life. Passing away thence, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance; such was my food, such my experience of pleasure and pain, such my span of life. Passing away thence, I re-arose here.’ Thus he recollects his numerous [pubbenivāsaṃ] in their modes and their details.

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Re: What exactly does the Pali term "parinibbāyino" mean ????

Post by DooDoot » Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:43 am

Nicolas wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:47 pm
Regardless of whether it refers to past "lives", this recollection can potentially go far into the past...
Thanks but this is a Pali sub-forum. The quote you offered remains unexamined. In fact, it seems like the DN 1 translation has used a stock phrase found elsewhere. The DN 1 Pali appears to not include the word "kappe", often translated as "aeon":
Seyyathidaṃ—ekampi saṃvaṭṭavivaṭṭaṃ dvepi saṃvaṭṭavivaṭṭāni tīṇipi saṃvaṭṭavivaṭṭāni cattāripi saṃvaṭṭavivaṭṭāni pañcapi saṃvaṭṭavivaṭṭāni dasapi saṃvaṭṭavivaṭṭāni: ‘amutrāsiṃ evaṃnāmo evaṅgotto evaṃvaṇṇo evamāhāro evaṃsukhadukkhappaṭisaṃvedī evamāyupariyanto, so tato cuto amutra udapādiṃ; tatrāpāsiṃ evaṃnāmo evaṅgotto evaṃvaṇṇo evamāhāro evaṃsukhadukkhappaṭisaṃvedī evamāyupariyanto, so tato cuto idhūpapanno’ti. Iti sākāraṃ sauddesaṃ anekavihitaṃ pubbenivāsaṃ anussarati.

one aeon of world-contraction and expansion, throughout two, three, four, five, or ten aeons of world-contraction and expansion.

https://suttacentral.net/dn1/en/sujato#dn1:3.71.13
The stock phrase is:
seyyathidaṃ—ekampi jātiṃ dvepi jātiyo tissopi jātiyo catassopi jātiyo pañcapi jātiyo dasapi jātiyo vīsampi jātiyo tiṃsampi jātiyo cattālīsampi jātiyo paññāsampi jātiyo jātisatampi jātisahassampi jātisatasahassampi anekepi saṃvaṭṭakappe anekepi vivaṭṭakappe anekepi saṃvaṭṭavivaṭṭakappe: ‘amutrāsiṃ evaṃnāmo evaṅgotto evaṃvaṇṇo evamāhāro evaṃsukhadukkhappaṭisaṃvedī evamāyupariyanto, so tato cuto amutra udapādiṃ; tatrāpāsiṃ evaṃnāmo evaṅgotto evaṃvaṇṇo evamāhāro evaṃsukhadukkhappaṭisaṃvedī evamāyupariyanto, so tato cuto idhūpapanno’ti. Iti sākāraṃ sauddesaṃ anekavihitaṃ pubbenivāsaṃ anussarāmi.

many eons of the world contracting, many eons of the world expanding, many eons of the world contracting and expanding.

https://suttacentral.net/mn4/en/sujato
We know from DN 16, when the Buddha said to Ananda he could extend his life or remain for the "kappe", that the word "kappe" does not necessarily mean "eon".
New Concise Pali English Dictionary
kappa
masculine n. & masculine

1. (m. n.)
i. an aeon, a cycle of the world’s evolution and dissolution; one stage of a cycle; a very long period of time.

ii. a (limited) length of time

https://suttacentral.net/define/kappa
Also, your quote from DN 1 appears to be found in the section about Eternalism. :smile:
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Nicolas
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Re: What exactly does the Pali term "parinibbāyino" mean ????

Post by Nicolas » Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:17 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:43 am
Also, your quote from DN 1 appears to be found in the section about Eternalism.
That's not relevant. The fact that it's in the section about eternalism doesn't put into doubt the recollection of past abodes. It's as if a person were driving throughout the night. You could say that because of the darkness, they are not able to discern their surroundings and may be wrong in their interpretation of what they see, but you can't dispute that they've been driving throughout.
Either way, we don't need to use DN 1 (see below).
DooDoot wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:43 am
In fact, it seems like the DN 1 translation has used a stock phrase found elsewhere. The DN 1 Pali appears to not include the word "kappe", often translated as "aeon"
Good find. As you pointed out, it is a stock phrase, so let us refer to the stock phrase which includes kappa/kappe instead of the one from DN 1.
DooDoot wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:43 am
We know from DN 16, when the Buddha said to Ananda he could extend his life or remain for the "kappe", that the word "kappe" does not necessarily mean "eon".
I don't see why "kappa" in DN 16 should refer to a vague "length of time" vs. an "eon". I don't exclude the possibility, though.
DN 16 reads "kappaṃ vā tiṭṭheyya kappāvasesaṃ vā". I find it more logical if this refers to "eon" ("eon or remain for the remainder of the eon") vs "length of time" ("length of time or remain for the remainder of the length of time")--supposing "-vasesaṃ" refers to "remainder of" according to the existing translations.
Either way, the fact that the Buddha, through use of supernormal power, could extend his lifespan for a "kappa" or the remainder of a "kappa" likely means that he would be extending his life beyond a normal lifespan (and therefore, recollecting past abodes for many kappas likely means recollecting past abodes before one's physical birth).

I speculate that "kappa" as in "eon" is the more common meaning in the suttas. Example: SN 15.5, or AN 4.123 which reads: "The lifespan of the gods of Brahma’s Host is one eon" (whereas other suttas list the lifespan of devas in rupaloka to be millions of years).

The stock phrase itself (the full one, not the one from DN 1) also reads "anekepi saṃvaṭṭakappe anekepi vivaṭṭakappe anekepi saṃvaṭṭavivaṭṭakappe". What do you think saṃvaṭṭakappe, vivaṭṭakappe, and saṃvaṭṭavivaṭṭakappe mean?

Let's take a look at Iti 22. The Pali reads "Satta vassāni mettacittaṃ bhāvetvā satta saṃvaṭṭavivaṭṭakappe nayimaṃ lokaṃ punarāgamāsiṃ. Saṃvaṭṭamāne sudaṃ, bhikkhave, kappe ābhassarūpago homi; vivaṭṭamāne kappe suññaṃ brahmavimānaṃ upapajjāmi."
... which John D. Ireland translates as:
"Having cultivated for seven years a mind of loving-kindness, for seven aeons of contraction and expansion I did not return to this world. Whenever the aeon contracted I reached the plane of Streaming Radiance, and when the aeon expanded I arose in an empty Brahma-mansion."
... and Thanissaro Bhikkhu translates it as:
"Having developed a mind of good will for seven years, then for seven eons of contraction & expansion I didn’t return to this world. Whenever the eon was contracting, I entered the [realm of] Radiance. Whenever the eon was expanding, I reappeared in an empty Brahma-abode."

It seems pretty clear to me that the "saṃvaṭṭavivaṭṭakappe" referred to, both here and in the stock phrase we have been referring to, refers to a specific and long length of time, something clearly longer than a human lifespan.

Also, since we're off-topic, I invite the moderators to move our messages to a new topic.

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