what happens to our mind consciousness when we die

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bkmudita
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what happens to our mind consciousness when we die

Post by bkmudita »

SN Part V The Great Book (Mah̄vagga) Chapter XI 55 Sotāpattisaṃyutta Connected Discourses on Stream-Entry
21 (1) Mahānāma (1)

“Don’t be afraid, Mahānāma! Don’t be afraid, Mahānāma! Your death will not be a bad one, your demise will not be a bad one.338 When a person’s mind has been fortified over a long time by faith, virtue, learning, generosity, and wisdom, right here crows, vultures, hawks, dogs, jackals, or various creatures eat his body, consisting of form, composed of the four great elements, [370] originating from mother and father, built up out of rice and gruel, subject to impermanence, to being worn and rubbed away away, to breaking apart and dispersal. But his mind, which has been fortified over a long time by faith, virtue, learning, generosity, and wisdom—that goes upwards, goes to distinction.339
 
339 Taṃ uddhaṅgāmi hoti visesagāmi. The passage shows citta as the principle of personal continuity which survives the death of the body and reaps the fruits of kamma. In the case of a noble disciple it “goes to distinction” by way of a higher rebirth and by evolving onwards to Nibbāna. The following simile of the pot is at 42:6 (IV 313,27-30), differently applied.

“Suppose, Mahānāma, a man submerges a pot of ghee or a pot of oil in a deep pool of water and breaks it. All of its shards and fragments would sink downwards, but the ghee or oil there would rise upwards. So too, Mahānāma, when a person’s mind has been fortified over a long time by faith, virtue, learning, generosity, and wisdom, right here crows … or various creatures eat his body.… But his mind, which has been fortified over a long time by faith, virtue, learning, generosity, and wisdom—that goes upwards, goes to distinction. [371]

˚Gāmin (adj.) [from gacchati, gam] f. ˚iṇī, in composition ˚gāmi˚. -- (a) going, walking, lit.: sīgha˚ walking quickly Sn 381; -- (b) leading to, making for, usually with magga or paṭipadā (gāminī), either lit. Pāṭaliputtagāmi -- magga the road to P

Uddhaŋ (& Uddha˚) (indecl.) [nt. of adj. *uddha = Sk. ūrdhva high; to Idg. ared(h) as in Lat. arduus steep, or ured as in Sk. vardhate to raise, Gr. o)rqo/s straight] high up, on top, above (adv. & prep.). -- On uddhaŋ in spatial, temporal, ethical & psychological application see in detail Nd2 155. -- I. (adv.). -- A. (of space) up, aloft, on top, above (opp. adho) -- In contrast with adho (above > below) -- Esp. with ref. to the points of the compass as "in zenith" (opp. adho "in nadir"), e. g. at D i.222 ("straight up"); It 120; J i.20. <-> B. (of time) in future, ahead, hence Sn 894; Nd1 303 (u. vuccati anāgataŋ). -- II. (prep. with abl. & instr.). <-> A. (of space) in phrase uddhaŋ pādatalā adho kesamatthakā (above the soles & below the scalp)

Visesa [fr. vi+śiṣ, cp. Epic Sk. viśeṣa] 1. (mark of) distinction, characteristic, discrimination -- 2. elegance, splendour, excellence -- 3. distinction, peculiar merit or advantage, eminence, excellence, extraordinary state -- 4. difference, variety -- 5. specific idea (in meditation), attainment -- âdhigama specific attainment -- gāmin reaching distinction, gaining merit -- gū reaching a higher state or attainment -- paccaya ground for distinction -- bhāgiya participating in, or leading to distinction or progress (spiritually)

what do you think?
Last edited by bkmudita on Sun Aug 18, 2019 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Alīno
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Re: what happens to our mind consciousness when we die

Post by Alīno »

Hello,

As I understand, in case of "womb reborning", dying mind generates some kind of energetic impulse, and that impulse hits a "baby to born" mind and marks it like a stamp.
In case of "spontaneous reborning" as a deva or hell or ghost or asura realm this dying impulse generates new khandhas in these realms, like air from lungs generates soap bubble.

But it's just my personal suppositions..._/\_
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bkmudita
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Re: what happens to our mind consciousness when we die

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SN 12.19 (9) The Wise Man and the Fool

“Bhikkhus, for the fool, hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving, this body has originated. For the fool that ignorance has not been abandoned and that craving has not been utterly destroyed. For what reason? Because the fool has not lived the holy life for the complete destruction of suffering. Therefore, with the breakup of the body, the fool fares on to [another] body. Faring on to [another] body, he is not freed from birth, aging, and death; not freed from sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair; not freed from suffering, I say.
 
“Bhikkhus, for the wise man, hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving, this body has originated. For the wise man that ignorance has been abandoned and that craving has been utterly destroyed. For what reason? Because the wise man has lived the holy life [25] for the complete destruction of suffering. Therefore, with the breakup of the body, the wise man does not fare on to [another] body. Not faring on to [another] body, he is freed from birth, aging, and death; freed from sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair; freed from suffering, I say.
 
“This, bhikkhus, is the distinction, the disparity, the difference between the wise man and the fool, that is, the living of the holy life.”50
sentinel
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Re: what happens to our mind consciousness when we die

Post by sentinel »

What fares on to another body and how ?
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Re: what happens to our mind consciousness when we die

Post by cappuccino »

mind survives the loss of the body
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DooDoot
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Re: what happens to our mind consciousness when we die

Post by DooDoot »

bkmudita wrote: Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:41 pm But his mind, which has been fortified over a long time by faith, virtue, learning, generosity, and wisdom—that goes upwards, goes to distinction.

Visesa [fr. vi+śiṣ, cp. Epic Sk. viśeṣa] 1. (mark of) distinction, characteristic, discrimination -- 2. elegance, splendour, excellence -- 3. distinction, peculiar merit or advantage, eminence, excellence, extraordinary state -- 4. difference, variety -- 5. specific idea (in meditation), attainment -- âdhigama specific attainment -- gāmin reaching distinction, gaining merit -- gū reaching a higher state or attainment -- paccaya ground for distinction -- bhāgiya participating in, or leading to distinction or progress (spiritually)

what do you think?
Hi. To me, it simply means Mahānāma was a student of the Buddha but had not had great direct realisation. But he had enough real learning & disposition that when the time of imminent death approached, Mahānāma would realise the reality of death and, would realise the Dhamma at that point, by realising impermanence, not-self, etc, and thus destroy his fear.

This commonly happens in life, when it certain very precarious situations, a learned knowledge will rise up and become true operating wisdom. SN 22.1 is another sutta that makes the distinction between the simultaneous decay of the physical body and the growth of wisdom.
bkmudita wrote: Sun Aug 18, 2019 4:20 pmTasmā paṇḍito kāyassa bhedā na kāyūpago hoti.

Therefore, with the breakup of the body, the wise man does not fare on to [another] body. Not faring on to [another] body, he is freed from birth, aging, and death; freed from sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair; freed from suffering, I say.
Again, your interpretation of "kāyūpago" appears materialistic. MN 144 has a similar teaching, as follows:
MN 144 wrote:When someone lays down this body and takes up another body, I call them ‘blameworthy’.

Yo kho, sāriputta, imañca kāyaṃ nikkhipati aññañca kāyaṃ upādiyati tamahaṃ ‘saupavajjo’ti vadāmi.
The relevant words above are "upādiyati" ("attachment/attaches to") and "kāya" ("group", "collection", "body"). The word "kaya" does not necessarily mean "physical body". For example, in MN 44, the "sa-kaya" is the "five aggregates" identified with as "self".

While your materialistic interpretations of SN 55.21 & SN 12.19 may be true, to me, your interpretations are not well evidenced or well argued.

Regards :smile:
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:21 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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SarathW
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Re: what happens to our mind consciousness when we die

Post by SarathW »

Vinnana paccaya Namarupa.
Namarupa paccaya Vinnana.
===========
Campfire becomes a grass fire, grassfire becomes bushfire, bushfire becomes a house fire.
Consciousness is like a fire. It sustains due to fuel.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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DooDoot
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Re: what happens to our mind consciousness when we die

Post by DooDoot »

SarathW wrote: Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:13 pmConsciousness is like a fire. It sustains due to fuel.
So what is the fuel :shrug: ? In MN 38, the Buddha used the metaphor of "rubbish" for the 6th fuel:
Just as fire is classified simply by whatever requisite condition in dependence on which it burns — a fire that burns in dependence on wood is classified simply as a wood-fire, a fire that burns in dependence on wood-chips is classified simply as a wood-chip-fire; a fire that burns in dependence on grass is classified simply as a grass-fire; a fire that burns in dependence on cow-dung is classified simply as a cow-dung-fire; a fire that burns in dependence on chaff is classified simply as a chaff-fire; a fire that burns in dependence on rubbish is classified simply as a rubbish-fire

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:alien:
SarathW wrote: Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:13 pm Vinnana paccaya Namarupa.
Namarupa paccaya Vinnana.
What is 'rupa'? :shrug:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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SarathW
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Re: what happens to our mind consciousness when we die

Post by SarathW »

So what is the fuel :shrug: ?
Four nutriments.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
sentinel
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Re: what happens to our mind consciousness when we die

Post by sentinel »

Coarse foods
Fine foods
Mind foods
Consciousness foods
You always gain by giving
SarathW
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Re: what happens to our mind consciousness when we die

Post by SarathW »

"Monks, there are these four nutriments for the maintenance of beings who have come into being or for the support of those in search of a place to be born. Which four? Physical food, gross or refined; contact as the second; intellectual intention the third; and consciousness the fourth. These are the four nutriments for the maintenance of beings who have come into being or for the support of those in search of a place to be born.

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“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
sentinel
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Re: what happens to our mind consciousness when we die

Post by sentinel »

SarathW wrote: Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:22 am ..........

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Hi sarathw ,

Do you mind explaining what are Refined foods ?


https://suttacentral.net/sa373/lzh/taisho


爾時,世尊告諸比丘:「有四食資益眾生,令得住世攝受長養。云何為四?謂一、麤摶食,二、細觸食,三、意思食,四、識食。
You always gain by giving
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Re: what happens to our mind consciousness when we die

Post by form »

Gandhabba..... But be careful do not add any words forbidden in Theravada. :mrgreen:
SarathW
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Re: what happens to our mind consciousness when we die

Post by SarathW »

sentinel wrote: Mon Aug 19, 2019 4:48 am
SarathW wrote: Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:22 am ..........

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Hi sarathw ,

Do you mind explaining what are Refined foods ?


https://suttacentral.net/sa373/lzh/taisho


爾時,世尊告諸比丘:「有四食資益眾生,令得住世攝受長養。云何為四?謂一、麤摶食,二、細觸食,三、意思食,四、識食。
I am not sure.
Certain Deva's have subtle physical bodies and they seems to live with the smell of the food.

======

Solid food, whether coarse or fine; contact is the second, mental intention the third, and consciousness the fourth.
Kabaḷīkāro āhāro oḷāriko vā sukhumo vā, phasso dutiyo, manosañcetanā tatiyā, viññāṇaṃ catutthaṃ.

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“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
sentinel
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Re: what happens to our mind consciousness when we die

Post by sentinel »

SarathW wrote: Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:55 am
I am not sure.
Certain Deva's have subtle physical bodies and they seems to live with the smell of the food.

=====
No , the question is how does one contemplate the coarse foods in meditation ?
Refined foods as well .
You always gain by giving
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