what's the nature of consciousness, and its relationship with time

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bkmudita
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what's the nature of consciousness, and its relationship with time

Post by bkmudita » Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:25 am

Saying consciousness, it's citta in general, and vinnana in particular. what's their relationship anyway?

what's the nature of consciousness?
what's the relationship between the 4 elements(earth, water, fire, wind) and consciousness?
we know time is related with matter(rupa), time is relative. does consciousness relevant to time? if not, what does it mean that consciousness is impermanent?
All Our Practice Efforts, Directed to the Cessation of the Taints. - vimutta.ca

SarathW
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Re: what's the nature of consciousness, and its relationship with time

Post by SarathW » Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:42 am

what's the relationship between the 4 elements(earth, water, fire, wind) and consciousness?
Interesting question.
There are six elements discussed in Buddhism. Earth, water, fire, wind, space, and consciousness.
First, four-elements is called Rupa.
Rupa occupied in space.
Space and consciousness are termed as Arupa.
Then it says when eye contact with rupa eye-consciousness arises.
Which means consciousness has at least six properties.(eye, ear etc)
Buddha did not talk about time except in conventional sense past, present, and future.
The way I understand the Buddhist term for time is Anicca.
That means if nothing changes there is no time.
The time is the birth and death of Rupa perceived by consciousness.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

chownah
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Re: what's the nature of consciousness, and its relationship with time

Post by chownah » Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:38 pm

I think I remember that the buddha said that it is called consciousness because it cognizes...I guess this means that the nature of consciousness is to cognize.....I think in the same sutta it says that consciousness is conjoined with some other stuff but maybe I'm wrong....if I get some time maybe I'll go look....or maybe someone else will beat me to it.
chownah
edit: I found it:
https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an ... .than.html
MN 43 PTS: M i 292
Mahavedalla Sutta: The Greater Set of Questions-and-Answers
It says that discernment and consciousness are conjoined and it say that feeling, percepetion, and consciousness are conjoined.
chownah
edit: From the same sutta:
And why do you call them 'fabrications'? Because they fabricate fabricated things, thus they are called 'fabrications.' What do they fabricate as a fabricated thing? For the sake of form-ness, they fabricate form as a fabricated thing. For the sake of feeling-ness, they fabricate feeling as a fabricated thing. For the sake of perception-hood... For the sake of fabrication-hood... For the sake of consciousness-hood, they fabricate consciousness as a fabricated thing. Because they fabricate fabricated things, they are called fabrications.
I guess this is saying that the nature of consciouness is that it is fabricated.
chownah

thepea
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Re: what's the nature of consciousness, and its relationship with time

Post by thepea » Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:26 pm

Thinking

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Bundokji
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Re: what's the nature of consciousness, and its relationship with time

Post by Bundokji » Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:38 pm

bkmudita wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:25 am
Saying consciousness, it's citta in general, and vinnana in particular. what's their relationship anyway?
Usually, the act of defining a phenomena is effective to the extent it serves a purpose. Defining also implies categorization, which makes a phenomena consisting of two main features: 1- its a member of a group (universal) 2- It can still be differentiated from other members of the same group (original).

The universal aspect of phenomena is not limited to a certain space or time because what is common to a group transcends the uniqueness of the individual. From that perspective, the originality of the individual is needed for cognition, while the universal aspect is needed for re-cognition.
what's the nature of consciousness?
I would say paradoxical in the sense that its functionality is the outcome of interactions between opposites iwhich ensures its continuity
what's the relationship between the 4 elements(earth, water, fire, wind) and consciousness?
If you use naive realism as a basis to answer this question: the presence of consciousnesses necessitates the existence of the elements, but the opposite is not true. A living being can experience matter, but not every form of matter is capable of experiencing.
we know time is related with matter(rupa), time is relative. does consciousness relevant to time? if not, what does it mean that consciousness is impermanent?
The paradox of the "universal" and the "original" determines the relationship between consciousness, time and space. If you have a friend which you can experience at different times and different locations, the universal aspect (or the group aspect) of you friend is what transcends the particular/original part of your friend, which comes to be known as the present moment or present experience. The universal here being past and future or your ability to recollect your friend (imagining) even if he is not physically there.

Impermanence is the outcome of the same paradox, because for impermanence to be known, a permanent/universal aspect of consciousness is needed which is uncorruptible by change . In that sense, the original aspect of consciousness is the necessary condition for knowing its own impermanence.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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cappuccino
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Re: what's the nature of consciousness, and its relationship with time

Post by cappuccino » Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:48 pm

the impermanence of consciousness is change

consciousness itself isn't impermanent

chownah
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Re: what's the nature of consciousness, and its relationship with time

Post by chownah » Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:07 am

cappuccino wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:48 pm
the impermanence of consciousness is change

consciousness itself isn't impermanent
Consciouness is a fabrication....all fabrications are impermanent...so consciousness itself is impermanent.
chownah

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Re: what's the nature of consciousness, and its relationship with time

Post by DooDoot » Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:12 am

bkmudita wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:25 am
Saying consciousness, it's citta in general, and vinnana in particular. what's their relationship anyway?
Per Satipatthana/Anapanasati (MN 10/MN 118), "citta" appears to be an object of consciousness rather than consciousness itself.
bkmudita wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:25 am
what's the nature of consciousness?
The nature of consciousness is to cognise or experience (MN 43). There are six types of consciousness dependent upon the sense bases (MN 38; MN 148; etc); the other aggregates (SN 22.53); and nama-rupa (mind-body; MN 9; SN 12.67, SN 22.82; etc). Every type of consciousness, whether gross or subtle, is conditioned & impermanent (SN 22.59).
bkmudita wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:25 am
what's the relationship between the 4 elements(earth, water, fire, wind) and consciousness?
For the four elements to be known/experienced, consciousness is required. For consciousness to exist, the four elements ('rupa') as a constituent of 'nama-rupa' are required (MN 9; SN 12.67, SN 22.82; etc).
bkmudita wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:25 am
we know time is related with matter (rupa), time is relative. does consciousness relevant to time? if not, what does it mean that consciousness is impermanent?
The suttas say the time span of consciousness is infinitely less than the time span of rupa. Refer to SN 12.61, below:
SN 12.61 wrote:It would be better for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person to hold to the body composed of the four great elements, rather than the mind, as the self. Why is that? Because this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more. But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey, swinging through a forest wilderness, grabs a branch. Letting go of it, it grabs another branch. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. In the same way, what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another.
:alien:
bkmudita wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:25 am
what does it mean that consciousness is impermanent?
Consciousness is impermanent because it arises & passes when the conditions it depends upon, name, sense organs & sense objects, arise & pass. Refer to MN 148, below:
MN 148 wrote:If anyone says, ‘The mind is self,’ that is not tenable. The rise and fall of the mind are discerned, and since its rise and fall are discerned, it would follow: ‘My self rises and falls.’ That is why it is not tenable for anyone to say, ‘The mind is self.’ Thus the mind is not self.

“If anyone says, ‘Mind-objects are self,’…‘Mind-consciousness is self,’…‘Mind-contact is self,’…‘Feeling is self,’…… ‘Craving is self’…That is why it is not tenable for anyone to say, ‘Craving is self.’ Thus the mind is not self, mind-objects are not self, mind-consciousness is not self, mind-contact is not self, feeling is not self, craving is not self

https://suttacentral.net/mn148/en/bodhi
Vague suttas such as SN 55.21 & SN 12.19 do not appear to support the common conjecture they are about the permanence of a rebirth consciousness.

Kind regards :smile:
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: what's the nature of consciousness, and its relationship with time

Post by cappuccino » Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:32 am

chownah wrote: Consciouness is a fabrication....all fabrications are impermanent...so consciousness itself is impermanent.
sheer nonsense

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Re: what's the nature of consciousness, and its relationship with time

Post by DooDoot » Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:35 am

cappuccino wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:32 am
chownah wrote: Consciouness is a fabrication....all fabrications are impermanent...so consciousness itself is impermanent.
sheer nonsense
Rūpaṃ kho āvuso channa, aniccaṃ, vedanā aniccā, saññā aniccā, saṃkhārā aniccā, viññāṇaṃ aniccaṃ, rūpaṃ anantā, vedanā anattā, saññā anattā, saṃkhārā anattā, viññāṇaṃ anattā, sabbe saṃkhārā aniccā, sabbe dhammā anattā

Form, friend Channa, is impermanent. Feeling is impermanent. Perception is impermanent. Mental formations (saṃkhārā) are impermanent. Consciousness is impermanent. Form is not-self. Feeling is not-self. Perception is not-self. Mental formations are not-self. Consciousness is not-self. All (sabbe) conditioned things (saṃkhārā) are impermanent (aniccā). All (sabbe) phenomena (dhammā) are not-self (anattā).

SN 22.90

:reading:
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:36 am, edited 2 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: what's the nature of consciousness, and its relationship with time

Post by alfa » Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:36 am

chownah wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:07 am
cappuccino wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:48 pm
the impermanence of consciousness is change

consciousness itself isn't impermanent
Consciouness is a fabrication....all fabrications are impermanent...so consciousness itself is impermanent.
chownah
Wouldn't that make nibanna an unconscious state? :shrug:

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Re: what's the nature of consciousness, and its relationship with time

Post by cappuccino » Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:51 am

DooDoot wrote:Consciousness is impermanent
because of change

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Re: what's the nature of consciousness, and its relationship with time

Post by DooDoot » Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:56 am

cappuccino wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:51 am
because of change
the quote says:
Consciousness is impermanent.... All (sabbe) conditioned things (saṃkhārā) are impermanent (aniccā).
In other words, the quote says impermanent are conditioned things and conditions things are impermanent. The quote says consciousness is a conditioned thing. Anyway, I posted enough other suttas that say consciousness is a conditioned thing or 'dependently arisen'.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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chownah
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Re: what's the nature of consciousness, and its relationship with time

Post by chownah » Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:29 am

cappuccino wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:32 am
chownah wrote: Consciouness is a fabrication....all fabrications are impermanent...so consciousness itself is impermanent.
sheer nonsense
I take refuge in the buddha, sheer nonsense, and the sangha?
chownah

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cappuccino
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Re: what's the nature of consciousness, and its relationship with time

Post by cappuccino » Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:29 am

DooDoot wrote:
cappuccino wrote: because of change
the quote says:
Consciousness is impermanent.... All (sabbe) conditioned things (saṃkhārā) are impermanent (aniccā).
consciousness is conditioned, it can be unconditioned

these are different states of consciousness

the latter state is Nirvana

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