Not so good take on a stream-enterer, Sutta

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auto
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Not so good take on a stream-enterer, Sutta

Post by auto » Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:20 pm

https://suttacentral.net/an4.5/en/sujato
excerpts
“These four people are found in the world.
“Cattārome, bhikkhave, puggalā santo saṃvijjamānā lokasmiṃ.
What four? Katame cattāro?
A person who goes with the stream; a person who goes against the stream; a steadfast person; and a brahmin who has crossed over and stands on the far shore. Anusotagāmī puggalo, paṭisotagāmī puggalo, ṭhitatto puggalo, tiṇṇo pāraṅgato thale tiṭṭhati brāhmaṇo.
And who is the person who goes with the stream? Katamo ca, bhikkhave, anusotagāmī puggalo?
It’s a person who takes part in sensual pleasures and does bad deeds. Idha, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo kāme ca paṭisevati, pāpañca kammaṃ karoti. This is called a person who goes with the stream. Ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, anusotagāmī puggalo.

...
All those people with uncontrolled sensuality, Ye keci kāmesu asaññatā janā,
not free of lust, enjoying sensual pleasures in this life: Avītarāgā idha kāmabhogino;
again and again, they return to birth and old age; Punappunaṃ jātijarūpagāmi te,
those who go with the stream are sunk in craving. Taṇhādhipannā anusotagāmino.

http://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/p/panna
pannaConcise Pali-English Dictionary by A.P. Buddhadatta Mahathera
panna:[adj.] fallen; gone down.

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Nicolas
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Re: Not so good take on a stream-enterer, Sutta

Post by Nicolas » Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:31 pm

This sutta isn't about stream-enterers.

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Re: Not so good take on a stream-enterer, Sutta

Post by auto » Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:00 pm

https://suttacentral.net/dhp334-359/en/anandajoti
He in whom the thirty-six streams flow pleasantly and strong,
the one with wrong view, is carried away by his passionate intentions.

Yassa chattiṃsati sotā,
manāpasavanā bhusā;
Mahāvahanti duddiṭṭhiṃ,
saṅkappā rāganissitā.
..
That one who is overcome by these low cravings and attachments in the world,
for him griefs increase like grass that has had heavy rain.

Yaṃ esā sahate jammī,
taṇhā loke visattikā;
Sokā tassa pavaḍḍhanti,
abhivaṭṭhaṃva bīraṇaṃ.
streams in a body, attached to the world. Could it be the rivers in the human body.

then the myth about river gods and putting the river run opposite direction start make sense..

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bridif1
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Re: Not so good take on a stream-enterer, Sutta

Post by bridif1 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:43 pm

Hi Auto!

As far as I know, the metaphor of the river and the stream has a lot of uses and interpretations in the suttas.

If we follow your first example without any concern for its context, everyone would be stream-enterers.

Kind regards!

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Re: Not so good take on a stream-enterer, Sutta

Post by auto » Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:01 pm

bridif1 wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:43 pm
Hi Auto!

As far as I know, the metaphor of the river and the stream has a lot of uses and interpretations in the suttas.

If we follow your first example without any concern for its context, everyone would be stream-enterers.

Kind regards!
If you follow without any concern for its context then why you bring in the notion that everyone would be streamentry? ..

it just says that person goes with the stream.

Do you refer to the bad deeds? SE is not free from doing bad deeds..perhaps SE is free from doing bad deeds what would result in lower worlds so that when you actually go 'rebirth' then your present life would be noble birth.

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Re: Not so good take on a stream-enterer, Sutta

Post by auto » Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:43 pm

Nicolas wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:31 pm
This sutta isn't about stream-enterers.
what you mean by that?

The excerpts speaks about person who goes with the stream. You can think of it it is a person who yet isn't able to go against the "its tradition that people go do jobs buy houses, marry and make children" stream.

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Re: Not so good take on a stream-enterer, Sutta

Post by Nicolas » Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:44 pm

auto wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:43 pm
Nicolas wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:31 pm
This sutta isn't about stream-enterers.
what you mean by that?
What I mean by that is that the sutta you quoted is in no way "not so good take on a stream-enterer". The "stream" referenced in the sutta is not the stream of the path. The word "stream" can be used in different contexts and different meanings, as bridif1 mentioned. The "stream" referenced in this sutta is the flow of the world, evil and sensuality, "going with the flow", vs. practicing relinquishment and goodness ("going against the flow").

"Stream-enterer" (sotāpanna) in the suttas refers to something very specific, and doesn't refer to a person walking into a river, or a person "going with the flow".

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Re: Not so good take on a stream-enterer, Sutta

Post by auto » Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:26 pm

Nicolas wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:44 pm
auto wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:43 pm
Nicolas wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:31 pm
This sutta isn't about stream-enterers.
what you mean by that?
What I mean by that is that the sutta you quoted is in no way "not so good take on a stream-enterer". The "stream" referenced in the sutta is not the stream of the path. The word "stream" can be used in different contexts and different meanings, as bridif1 mentioned. The "stream" referenced in this sutta is the flow of the world, evil and sensuality, "going with the flow", vs. practicing relinquishment and goodness ("going against the flow").

"Stream-enterer" (sotāpanna) in the suttas refers to something very specific, and doesn't refer to a person walking into a river, or a person "going with the flow".
sotāpanna partakes in sensual pleasures hence SE enters the stream, like you say flow of the world.

If he wouldn't partake in sensual pleasures then he would not be a streamenterer he would be 2nd person.

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Re: Not so good take on a stream-enterer, Sutta

Post by cappuccino » Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:39 pm

the stream inevitably flows…… to awakening

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Nicolas
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Re: Not so good take on a stream-enterer, Sutta

Post by Nicolas » Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:05 pm

auto wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:26 pm
sotāpanna partakes in sensual pleasures hence SE enters the stream, like you say flow of the world.

If he wouldn't partake in sensual pleasures then he would not be a streamenterer he would be 2nd person.
I repeat, "stream" in "stream-enterer" doesn't refer to sensual pleasures and the flow of the world, and has absolutely no relation with the sutta you originally quoted.
Dutiyasāriputta Sutta (SN 55.5) wrote: “Sāriputta, they speak of ‘the stream’. What is the stream?”

“Sir, the stream is simply this noble eightfold path, that is: right view, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right immersion.”

“Good, good, Sāriputta! For the stream is simply this noble eightfold path, that is: right view, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right immersion.

Sāriputta, they speak of ‘a stream-enterer’. What is a stream-enterer?”

“Sir, anyone who possesses this noble eightfold path is called a stream-enterer, the venerable of such and such name and clan.”

“Good, good, Sāriputta! For anyone who possesses this noble eightfold path is called a stream-enterer, the venerable of such and such name and clan.”

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Re: Not so good take on a stream-enterer, Sutta

Post by auto » Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:21 pm

Nicolas wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:05 pm
auto wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:26 pm
sotāpanna partakes in sensual pleasures hence SE enters the stream, like you say flow of the world.

If he wouldn't partake in sensual pleasures then he would not be a streamenterer he would be 2nd person.
I repeat, "stream" in "stream-enterer" doesn't refer to sensual pleasures and the flow of the world, and has absolutely no relation with the sutta you originally quoted.
change the wording then

the sotapanna lacks 2/3 of the 8fold path that he partakes in sensual pleasures sometimes
those who go with the stream are sunk in craving. Taṇhādhipannā anusotagāmino.
"Those who go with the stream"(its same as streamentry but differently said) is afflicted by craving.

http://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/a/adhipanna
adhipannaConcise Pali-English Dictionary by A.P. Buddhadatta Mahathera
adhipanna:[adj.] afflicted with; gone into.
anusotagāmīConcise Pali-English Dictionary by A.P. Buddhadatta Mahathera
anusotagāmī:[adj.] one who follows the stream.

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Nicolas
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Re: Not so good take on a stream-enterer, Sutta

Post by Nicolas » Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:30 pm

When the sutta mentions people going along with the stream, it is referring to people who don’t practice, not to a sotapanna.

Do you understand that two identical words can be used in two different contexts and therefore have two different meanings?

What you’re saying is similar to saying that the word “path” in “evil is the path to the lower realms” (for instance) refers to the Noble Eightfold Path.

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Re: Not so good take on a stream-enterer, Sutta

Post by auto » Fri Aug 16, 2019 2:57 pm

Nicolas wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:30 pm
When the sutta mentions people going along with the stream, it is referring to people who don’t practice, not to a sotapanna.
the Sutta you quoted is also describing stream-entrant like a zoopark animal, describing its factors, that person associates with good people etc.
I think it is describing the bhavaṅga/sub-conscious part not what SE cognizes in sense doors.

the people who go with the stream are people whos consciousness sinks/panna into bhavaṅga/sub-consciousness.

Sila/ethics will lead eventually to samadhi:
https://suttacentral.net/sn55.4/en/sujato
And they have the ethical conduct loved by the noble ones … leading to immersion. ariyakantehi sīlehi samannāgato hoti akhaṇḍehi … pe … samādhisaṃvattanikehi.
a person who is going against the stream is opposing the kama-loka consciousness stream from sinking into the bhavaṅga.

https://suttacentral.net/an4.5/en/sujato
And who is the person who goes against the stream? It’s a person who doesn’t take part in sensual pleasures or do bad deeds. They live the full and pure spiritual life in pain and sadness, weeping, with tearful faces.
the not doing bad deeds, it does the ethics part and staying away from sensual pleasures hint towards samadhi.
Nicolas wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:30 pm
Do you understand that two identical words can be used in two different contexts and therefore have two different meanings?
a snake doesn't kill and eat puppy if killer instinct won't arise. So puppy has two meanings.
Nicolas wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:30 pm
What you’re saying is similar to saying that the word “path” in “evil is the path to the lower realms” (for instance) refers to the Noble Eightfold Path.
taking part in sensual pleasures is how you become a stream-enterer whos consciousness sinks in, what then later you oppose from happening so that to get higher wisdom.

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Re: Not so good take on a stream-enterer, Sutta

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta » Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:27 pm

auto wrote: Not so good take on a stream-enterer, Sutta
Could you please kindly put forward your personal take on a stream-enterer [the one at first stage of enlightenment], if there is any?
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  • "the one thing all the mistaken views have in common is the assump­tion that the self exists" ~ DN1
  • "It is an entirely and perfectly foolish idea" ~ MN22
  • The No-self doctrine is found only in the teaching of the Buddha.
  • No-self (anatta) means that there is no permanent, unchanging entity in anything animate or inanimate. ~ SN22.59

auto
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Re: Not so good take on a stream-enterer, Sutta

Post by auto » Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:10 pm

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:27 pm
auto wrote: Not so good take on a stream-enterer, Sutta
Could you please kindly put forward your personal take on a stream-enterer [the one at first stage of enlightenment], if there is any?
SE by indulging in sensual pleasures is how the consciousness re-enters the womb for further development.

Alighting or the descent of consciousness have happened priorly by seeing/dassana:
DooDoot wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:47 pm
budo wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:45 pm
Of course he calls every sutta that proves him wrong "Fake" as his last retort, he's done this over 10 times already.[/b]
Sorry, but the sutta quote you highlighted says:
They properly attend: ‘This is suffering’ … ‘This is the origin of suffering’ … ‘This is the cessation of suffering’ … ‘This is the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering’.

So ‘idaṃ dukkhan’ti yoniso manasi karoti, ‘ayaṃ dukkhasamudayo’ti yoniso manasi karoti, ‘ayaṃ dukkhanirodho’ti yoniso manasi karoti, ‘ayaṃ dukkhanirodhagāminī paṭipadā’ti yoniso manasi karoti.

And as they do so, they give up three fetters:
Tassa evaṃ yoniso manasikaroto tīṇi saṃyojanāni pahīyanti—

identity view, doubt, and misapprehension of precepts and observances.
sakkāyadiṭṭhi, vicikicchā, sīlabbataparāmāso.

These are called the defilements that should be given up by seeing.
Ime vuccanti, bhikkhave, āsavā dassanā pahātabbā.
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/ ... ations.htm
3) Subhanteva adhimutto hoti.
One is intent on beauty. 04
http://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/s/subha
subhaPTS Pali-English dictionary The Pali Text Society's Pali-English dictionary
Subha,(adj.) [Vedic śubhas fr.subh; cp.sobhati] shining,bright,beautiful D.I,76=II.13=M.III,102; Dhs.250; DA.I,221; auspicious,lucky,pleasant Sn.341; It.80; good Sn.824,910; subhato maññati to consider as a good thing Sn.199; J.I,146; cp.S.IV,111; (nt.) welfare,good,pleasantness,cleanliness,beauty,pleasure;

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