What is the difference of Citta contemplation and Dhamma contemplation in Satipathana?

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
SarathW
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Re: What is the difference of Citta contemplation and Dhamma contemplation in Satipathana?

Post by SarathW » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:04 pm

In my opinion, Cittanupassna leads to Samatha meditation and Dhammanupassana leads to Vipassana aspect of the meditation.
This question was raised in Stack Exchanges as well.
https://buddhism.stackexchange.com/ques ... -reference

I think we should re-examine this question.
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DooDoot
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Re: What is the difference of Citta contemplation and Dhamma contemplation in Satipathana?

Post by DooDoot » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:22 am

SarathW wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:04 pm
In my opinion, Cittanupassna leads to Samatha meditation and Dhammanupassana leads to Vipassana aspect of the meditation.
If the impermanence, unsatisfactoriness & not-self of the cittta is seen clearly, this would be vipassana rather than samatha.
SarathW wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:09 pm
What is the difference between Citta contemplation and Dhamma contemplation in Satipathana?
Citta contemplation is when citta is the predominant object of meditation. Dhamma contemplation is when Dhamma is the predominant object of meditation.
SarathW wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:49 am
However, the way I see is all four Satipathana arise together but in varying degree.
Sounds like a biggest mistake. Obviously all four Satipathana do not arise together.
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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SarathW
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Re: What is the difference of Citta contemplation and Dhamma contemplation in Satipathana?

Post by SarathW » Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:49 am

The biggest mistake many of us make when understanding Satipathana is to think that each Satipathana is standing alone in their own territory.
However, the way I see is all four Satipathana arise together but in varying degree.
The climax is the Dhammanu passata.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: What is the difference of Citta contemplation and Dhamma contemplation in Satipathana?

Post by Zom » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:35 pm

One way of thinking about the four areas of mindfulness is that the first three are basically about building up concentration and mindfulness on aspects that go from gross to subtle. The fourth area is about insight into dynamics, understanding, and development.
Precisely. And - if we take a look on dhammanupassana in SN, we'll see that the explanation there is "5 hindrances" vs "7 factors of enlightenment". That is the core and real dhammanupassana. Everything else listed in DN 22 section are dubious late additions.

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Re: What is the difference of Citta contemplation and Dhamma contemplation in Satipathana?

Post by ToVincent » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:20 pm

Maybe this could help:
https://justpaste.it/69jp3

The all process must lead to the total giving up of piti and sukha (& dukha), in the fourth jhana.
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
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In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------

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SarathW
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Re: What is the difference of Citta contemplation and Dhamma contemplation in Satipathana?

Post by SarathW » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:12 pm

Zom wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:35 pm
One way of thinking about the four areas of mindfulness is that the first three are basically about building up concentration and mindfulness on aspects that go from gross to subtle. The fourth area is about insight into dynamics, understanding, and development.
Precisely. And - if we take a look on dhammanupassana in SN, we'll see that the explanation there is "5 hindrances" vs "7 factors of enlightenment". That is the core and real dhammanupassana. Everything else listed in DN 22 section are dubious late additions.
Agree.
This is a precise answer to my question.
Arent we examine five hindrances in both Cittanupassana and Dhammanupassana?
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Re: What is the difference of Citta contemplation and Dhamma contemplation in Satipathana?

Post by Zom » Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:33 pm

As mikenz66 said, 4th frame of reference is more about ongoing processes between dhammas, not dhammas themselves.
Here is what is to be contemplated while practising 4th satipatthana: https://suttacentral.net/sn46.51/en/bodhi :reading:

SarathW
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Re: What is the difference of Citta contemplation and Dhamma contemplation in Satipathana?

Post by SarathW » Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:06 pm

:goodpost: Zom
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: What is the difference of Citta contemplation and Dhamma contemplation in Satipathana?

Post by ToVincent » Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:43 am

SarathW wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:06 pm
:goodpost: Zom
viewtopic.php?f=44&t=32386&p=524317#p524274
This is what I call the "unknown" applesauce. That is to say, answering a muddled question, by a muzzy answer, that seems to be an evident solution.
In other words, you are putting an unkown variable in the definition of your equation.

What is a dhamma?
As long as you don't give a clear answer to that, the above "ongoing processes between dhammas, not dhammas themselves" remains quite a useless - how did Kant named that? Oh yeah! - "wortklauberei" (word-juggling").

That's all it is. A useless muzzy answer.
What "ongoing processes between dhammas" could probably mean?
?!?!?

_______

A dhamma is simply defined as the phenomenon resulting from the co-action (saṅkhārā) of the khandhas.
Khandhas are what the nāmarūpa nidāna is made of.
For instance, "saṅkhārized" khandhas descend (avakkanti) as dhammas from the nāmarūpa nidāna, to the saḷāyatana nidāna, as dhamma.

Saṅkhāra / saṃ-s-कार kāra [agt. kṛ] / saṃ-s-√ kṛ = to put together, join together, compose (RV.)
Saṅkhāra is just the "putting together" of the khandhas - their co-actions, that leads to a dhamma.

Gee!- Is that so difficult to understand?

The problem is, I guess, the lousy definitions of cittasaṅkhāra in MN 44/MA 210 and SN 41.6/SA 568.
The parallels don't match for cittasaṅkhāra; and it is dubious to rely on them. Particularly when talking about ceto (cetasika) in the saṅkhāra nidāna.

CITTA:

Training breathing (I/O), with the desire to be able to know the particulars of the mental coaction (cittasaṅkhārapaṭisaṃvedī assasissāmīti sikkhati,) happens in the 7th step, just after training breathing (I/O), with the desire to be able to feel pīti (a mano's kind of pleasure) and sukha (a citta's kind of pleasure - that is indeed a ceto's ("polluted" citta) kind of pleasure.

The idea is to experience the difference between pīti & sukha - but most of all, between mano & citta.
And particularly the effect of mano on citta (and citta on mano) .
This is the coaction that must be comprehend in step 7.
And this is the coaction (joining together) that needs to be calmed in step 8.
https://justpaste.it/1js3l

Then one can train breathing (I/O), with the desire to be able to know the particulars of the Citta ("unpolluted" ceto), to gladden it (abhippamodaya) [ properly], to establish it (samādhi), and to liberate it (from its ceto's stance - cetovimutti) - (9th to 12th step).

DHAMMA:

A cit that is liberated, can see clearly.
So one can contemplate the "not-one's ownness" (the foreign nature) of the dhamma (phenomena), according to what has come to be (yathābhūta) - That is to say, the saṅkhāra of the khandhas, as "not ours" - the "not-one's ownness" (the foreign nature) of the ensuing phenomenon (step 13).
Here anicca takes its original meaning of "not-inwardly" (outwardly-foreign).
And lastly, one contemplates dispassion (virāga); restraint (nirodha = निरुध् nirudh (RV.) and relinquishment (paṭinissagga) towards this dhamma (phenomenon) - (last 3 steps.
https://justpaste.it/69jp3
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------

https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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Zom
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Re: What is the difference of Citta contemplation and Dhamma contemplation in Satipathana?

Post by Zom » Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:18 pm

What "ongoing processes between dhammas" could probably mean?
Here is "useless answer" for you from the Buddha: https://suttacentral.net/sn46.51/en/bodhi 8-)

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Re: What is the difference of Citta contemplation and Dhamma contemplation in Satipathana?

Post by ToVincent » Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:59 pm

Zom wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:18 pm
What "ongoing processes between dhammas" could probably mean?
Here is "useless answer" for you from the Buddha: https://suttacentral.net/sn46.51/en/bodhi 8-)
Can you be more precise about what you exactly consider as a "dhamma" or "dhammas" in all this?
Or is it just that "dhamma" means "stuff" or "smurf" to you?
Do you smurf what I smurf, by smurfing that?

_______

Thanks anyway.
It allowed me to realize how Bodhi and Sujato (imitative tendency,) did translate abyagga (avyagratva - [fr. व्यग्रता vy-agra--tva)]) in:
There are things that are the foundation?!?! of serenity and (the foundation of) "freedom from distraction" (Sujato) - "the sign of nondispersal" (Bodhi).
Atthi, bhikkhave, samathanimittaṃ abyagganimittaṃ.


These post-Buddhist meanings might certainly give a legitimacy to their translation of samādhi as "concentration" (Bodhi), or as "immersion" (Sujato) - However, it does not give credit to the pre-Buddhist meaning of अग्र agra, as:
before (ŚBr), before (in time) (AitUp); which is much more in line with the more proper translation of samādhi as "establishment" - (a translation that is also found in Chinese).
In which case - (when nimitta is properly translated as "manifestation" (or "expression")) - atthi, bhikkhave, samathanimittaṃ abyagganimittaṃ becomes: "there is the manifestation of serenity and the manifestation of what comes before (in time).
Which is exactly what serenity brings about - viz, the vision according to how things have come to be (yathābhūta) - namely what comes from what is "before in time" (to wit, the "sankharizing" of the khandhas); aka vipassana (the insight / clear and serene distinction into phenomena ) (https://justpaste.it/17h8o) - and consequently, the establishment (samādhi) in an "unpolluted" citta.

_______

Dhammas are not "things", or "states", or "principles", or "qualities", or whatever those translators want to assign to them, their own interpretations in SN 46.51.
Dhammas are the phenomena born from the coaction (saṅkhārā) of the khandhas.
There is either a manifestation (nimitta) or or a less obvious phenomena (dhamma) in SN 46.51.

When in the presence of doubt, there is a dhamma. For doubt is born of the ignorance of how things have come to be. That is why one has to turn his/her mano towards the origin (yoniso manasi-kara).

When in prence of sati (here, sati has the meaning of "obtention" (of samādhi)), there is a dhamma. For there is still ignorance about how to acquire that obtention. That is why one has to turn the mano towards the origin (yoniso manasi-kara). Because it is from the knowledge of that origin, and how dhammas come to be from that origin, and how they are "not one's own", that one can reach the "obtention" (sati) of samādhi.

When it comes to the kusalākusalā dhammā, things are more obvious. Yet, it is towards the origin that one has still to turn one's mano. To realise that this form, or this feeling, etc., and their coaction are kusalā or akusalā.

etc.
_______

Anyway - who cares?
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------

https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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Zom
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Re: What is the difference of Citta contemplation and Dhamma contemplation in Satipathana?

Post by Zom » Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:44 pm

Can you be more precise about what you exactly consider as a "dhamma" or "dhammas" in all this?
I already said what suttas understand by dhammas in 4th satipatthana. These are 7 enlightment factors and 5 hindrances.

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Re: What is the difference of Citta contemplation and Dhamma contemplation in Satipathana?

Post by ToVincent » Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:19 am

Zom wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:44 pm
Can you be more precise about what you exactly consider as a "dhamma" or "dhammas" in all this?
I already said what suttas understand by dhammas in 4th satipatthana. These are 7 enlightment factors and 5 hindrances.
!?!?!
_____

When you are definitely sure that certain beings are decidedly more concerned to serve you "sophisticated" nonsense, rather than sticking with the subtleties of simplicity.

"Wortklauberei" alright!
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------

https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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Re: What is the difference of Citta contemplation and Dhamma contemplation in Satipathana?

Post by sentinel » Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:37 pm

Zom wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:44 pm

I already said what suttas understand by dhammas in 4th satipatthana. These are 7 enlightment factors and 5 hindrances.
These are not dhammas contemplation .

You don't "contemplate" 7foe & 5 hindrances !
You contemplate the 5 aggregates dhamma .

Bodies
Feeling
Consciousness(falsified as mind)
Dhamma
:buddha1:

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Zom
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Re: What is the difference of Citta contemplation and Dhamma contemplation in Satipathana?

Post by Zom » Sat Aug 17, 2019 7:59 pm

These are not dhammas contemplation .

You don't "contemplate" 7foe & 5 hindrances !
You contemplate the 5 aggregates dhamma .
These are. You contemplate how all these things work and happen in your mind. How antidotes work with all these things and other dhammas.

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