Veganism: a host of issues.

[Sam Vara]

See the first page of this thread with the review study on "Man the fat hunter"

The abstract is about presenting a hypothesis that a newer hominin followed homo erectus as a result of the decline of elephants.

What's that got to do with anything "going against evolution"?

[budo]

See the first page of this thread with the review study on "Man the fat hunter"

The abstract is about presenting a hypothesis that a newer hominin followed homo erectus as a result of the decline of elephants.

What's that got to do with anything "going against evolution"?

Guess you didn't read the part that it's eating meat that made our brain sizes bigger and allowed us to specialize and separate from our chimp ancestors. Each new Homo species had higher brain weight due to meat and fat consumption.

This hypothesis is backed by isotope analysis, https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 111704.htm

What does it have to do with going against evolution? Our shrinking brain size due to a modern omnivore diet (let alone vegan diet) because the brain is the most expensive tissue which requires high nutrient density like fat. Probably not eating enough high dense protein and fat. Hell, even myself as a semi-carnivore, am not eating enough protein according to the famous low carb 85 year old Dr. Bernstein.

Read about the expensive tissue hypothesis which is already largely accepted for the past 50+ years in mainstream science: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expensive ... hypothesis

That means all that fiber and low nutrient density food you're eating is insufficient in meeting your brain's energy requirements (which is heavily dependent on D3 and cholesterol).

[Sam Vara]

What does it have to do with going against evolution? Our shrinking brain size due to a modern omnivore diet (let alone vegan diet) because the brain is the most expensive tissue which requires high nutrient density like fat.

If our brains are getting smaller, then how is that "going against evolution"? Changes to our bodies in response to selective pressures are precisely what evolution is.

That means all that fiber and low nutrient density food you're eating is insufficient in meeting your brain's energy requirements (which is heavily dependent on D3 and cholesterol).

And how would that be manifested in real life? If you specify some symptoms for a brain's energy requirements not being met, then any of them being manifested now would tend to support the hypothesis. If not, then the hypothesis remains unproven, doesn't it.

So, what should we be looking for?

[seeker242]

So, what should we be looking for?

Go back to being a hunter gather and stop pooping indoors, stop driving cars, stop living in buildings, stop wearing clothes, because all those things are completely unnatural. Just go live naked in the forest and eat stuff out of the dirt.

[samsarictravelling]

How I eat (or part of how I eat, because I do not reveal everything about myself; we'll see how much I say in this post):

I eat both meat and vegetables and fruit. I eat all healthy foods, whether they are animal or plant (vegetables and fruits) in origin.

I find eating vegetables, whether cooked or uncooked, but without anything like oil or sugar added to it preferably, I imagine cleans my large intestines.

Eating uncooked vegetables and being vegetarian also allows me to clean my system, is what I believed when I was growing up. I possibly do so today also. Except I will cook my vegetables sometimes now (that's all I'll say).

Eating whole wheat bread is good, or brown rice is good. But eating white rice is for enjoyment.

Eating meat is good.

samsarictravelling

EDIT: I did not say one thing, but now will say it:

This must be practiced: Never to eat meat that has been seen, heard, or suspected having been killed for one specifically.

samsarictravelling

[eto]

I would imagine that given the Buddha made it quite clear that one of the five types of business not to engage in is selling meat, one can infer he ain't down with meat eating. Of course making a big deal of it would alienate most people and the aim of the dhamma is much higher than that.

[chownah]

So, what should we be looking for?

Go back to being a hunter gather and stop pooping indoors, stop driving cars, stop living in buildings, stop wearing clothes, because all those things are completely unnatural. Just go live naked in the forest and eat stuff out of the dirt.

There are aboriginal tribes in the amazon basin who pretty much do that. Evidently you could put them totally naked and with absolutely nothing...absolutely nothing and bare naked....then put them in the rain forest that they are accustomed to and in a week they would have completely constructed all of the things which they usually have from their culture....body covering, shelter, tools, cooking stuff.....everything.
chownah

[auto]

This must be practiced: Never to eat meat that has been seen, heard, or suspected having been killed for one specifically.

would you be happy to know that the thing you got is stolen? now just think same for meat, are you happy if you know that an animal is killed?

[Keith]

I adopted a vegan lifestyle a couple of years ago because I was unable to justify the alternative and reconcile it with my conscience. The more my compassion developed, the more difficult I found it to eat meat, so a few years ago I became vegetarian. After about half a year, I decided that every argument in favour of vegetarianism also applied to veganism - and more.

My last blood check (a couple of months ago) shows I'm healthy. No deficiencies. My BMI is in the middle of the healthy range, as is my body fat percentage and blood pressure. When I first adopted veganism I put weight on. It's possible to be a healthy vegan and an unhealthy began, as with all diets.

My choice to become vegan had nothing to do with my health or my religion or ambitions of spiritual progression. I became vegan because I could not reconcile the alternative with my conscience. I became vegan because I could not justify being non-vegan.

No two people are the same, but I've included my experiences just to enrich the thread. Maybe someone will find value in what I've written, maybe they'll feel the need to dispute it. I'm not going to get into a debate.

[seeker242]

So, what should we be looking for?

Go back to being a hunter gather and stop pooping indoors, stop driving cars, stop living in buildings, stop wearing clothes, because all those things are completely unnatural. Just go live naked in the forest and eat stuff out of the dirt.

There are aboriginal tribes in the amazon basin who pretty much do that. Evidently you could put them totally naked and with absolutely nothing...absolutely nothing and bare naked....then put them in the rain forest that they are accustomed to and in a week they would have completely constructed all of the things which they usually have from their culture....body covering, shelter, tools, cooking stuff.....everything.
chownah

Im sure there are! However, the point was that to argue something is bad, because it’s unnatural, is nonsensical.

[Spiny Norman]

This must be practiced: Never to eat meat that has been seen, heard, or suspected having been killed for one specifically.

would you be happy to know that the thing you got is stolen? now just think same for meat, are you happy if you know that an animal is killed?

It's a good question. I've heard it argued that buying meat is OK because the first precept only applies to killing we do personally, and not to killing done on our behalf - in this case by the butcher.
But with this logic it would be OK to pay a hit-man to kill somebody on our behalf. It doesn't make sense, does it?

[sunnat]

It's a hot topic. There is no rule against eating meat. There is rule against killing beings, trading in beings and flesh, inciting others to kill, trading in weapons, eating flesh that has been killed to feed you. There is no rule for monks against eating flesh that is offered when that flesh has not been killed to specifically feed you and as long as the flesh is not from a list of proscribed animals.

I'm an omnivore afa eating what is offered. By myself I tend towards vegetarian. As far as veganism goes. It's a choice, I think well worth trying. If nothing else it is cleansing and a lot of things about nutrition is learned from direct experience.

[Sam Vara]

It's a good question. I've heard it argued that buying meat is OK because the first precept only applies to killing we do personally, and not to killing done on our behalf - in this case by the butcher.
But with this logic it would be OK to pay a hit-man to kill somebody on our behalf. It doesn't make sense, does it?

I take your point, but the hit-man comparison is not quite right here. Actively inciting someone to commit murder is definitely proscribed, and would, mutatis mutandis, be more akin to requesting that someone go and kill an animal for your dinner. Both would be disallowed for monks, for example. There is a difference between buying meat (i.e. flesh that is already dead) or buying a vital human organ, and requesting that in each case someone does the killing in order to furnish you with what you want.

The salient ethical point here seems to be whether our purchase of the commodity, when coupled with current knowledge of how markets work, makes us morally culpable in that it constitutes an indirect request that someone does the killing. Even if you have not requested the death of the particular animal you are eating, you probably know that the butcher will request the death of another animal to replenish stock.

On a more general level, the treatment of this type of situation seems odd to us because it is free of the type of consequentialist reasoning expressed in the West by Rousseau and Kant etc. by the phrase that whoever wills the end, wills the means.

I share your unease with it, which is part of the reason why I am a vegan, and also why I am moving towards the view that what is called Buddhist "ethics" doesn't really do what is expected of the term in English. Sila is a set of imperatives, but not necessarily ethical ones.

[ManEagle]

I adopted a vegan lifestyle a couple of years ago because I was unable to justify the alternative and reconcile it with my conscience. The more my compassion developed, the more difficult I found it to eat meat, so a few years ago I became vegetarian. After about half a year, I decided that every argument in favour of vegetarianism also applied to veganism - and more.

My last blood check (a couple of months ago) shows I'm healthy. No deficiencies. My BMI is in the middle of the healthy range, as is my body fat percentage and blood pressure. When I first adopted veganism I put weight on. It's possible to be a healthy vegan and an unhealthy began, as with all diets.

My choice to become vegan had nothing to do with my health or my religion or ambitions of spiritual progression. I became vegan because I could not reconcile the alternative with my conscience. I became vegan because I could not justify being non-vegan.

No two people are the same, but I've included my experiences just to enrich the thread. Maybe someone will find value in what I've written, maybe they'll feel the need to dispute it. I'm not going to get into a debate.

I definitely find value in what you've written, Keith. Your story mirrors mine.

I have just returned to this forum after a period of abstaining from such things and being married to a Buddhist and having convinced her also to go vegan I thought I'd check in to the forum to see if this subject had come up anywhere. I'm not surprised it is being discussed but I have to say that at times, after reading through the whole thread, many of the comments, especially from one user in particular reminds me of reading through the "trolls" comments on YouTube.

...

[retrofuturist]

Greetings ManEagle,

I have just returned to this forum after a period of abstaining from such things and being married to a Buddhist and having convinced her also to go vegan I thought I'd check in to the forum to see if this subject had come up anywhere. I'm not surprised it is being discussed but I have to say that at times, after reading through the whole thread, many of the comments, especially from one user in particular reminds me of reading through the "trolls" comments on YouTube.

On account of "just return[ing] to this forum after a period of abstaining from such things", you may not know that discussion on Vegetarian and Veganism is out of scope... unless it directly pertains to "Wellness, Diet & Fitness".

By bringing in non-Buddhist articles that relate to the ethics of Veganism, you're inadvertently going beyond the current scope of this forum. BUT... that's not to say the Dharma Wheel sites prohibit such discussion, only that such discussion should be done at the recently created...

Dharma Wheel Engaged Forum
Engaged Buddhism forum, a nonsectarian community discussing the application of the Dharma to social and environmental issues.

I will edit out and PM you back your off-topic commentary, so that if you wish to start a new topic at DWE, it will be easier for you to do so.

Thank you for your understanding.

Metta,
Paul.