Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

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Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:59 pm

Greetings Sarath,
SarathW wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:49 pm
Buddha said the path and fruit are immediate. (Akaliko)
You'll have to take that up with the Buddha and his concept of the "four pairs" then...
AN 5.179 wrote:he is endowed with verified confidence in the Sangha: 'The Sangha of the Blessed One's disciples who have practiced well... who have practiced straight-forwardly... who have practiced methodically... who have practiced masterfully — in other words, the four pairs, the eight individuals — they are the Sangha of the Blessed One's disciples: worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy of offerings, worthy of respect, the incomparable field of merit for the world.' This is the third pleasant mental abiding in the here & now that he has attained, for the purification of the mind that is impure, for the cleansing of the mind that is unclean.
Translator note wrote:The four pairs are (1) the person on the path to stream-entry, the person experiencing the fruit of stream-entry; (2) the person on the path to once-returning, the person experiencing the fruit of once-returning; (3) the person on the path to non-returning, the person experiencing the fruit of non-returning; (4) the person on the path to arahantship, the person experiencing the fruit of arahantship. The eight individuals are the eight types forming these four pairs.
Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Post by SarathW » Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:20 am

the person on the path to stream-entry
Agree.
Aren't we all of us in this forum at this stage and enjoying the Path?
Say If I am traveling from New York to LA when I will be in New York?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Post by sunnat » Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:07 am

Yuganaddha Sutta: In Tandem

On one occasion Ven. Ananda was staying in Kosambi, at Ghosita's monastery. There he addressed the monks, "Friends!"

"Yes, friend," the monks responded.

Ven. Ananda said: "Friends, whoever — monk or nun — declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of four paths. Which four?

"There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.

"Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity preceded by insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.

"Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity in tandem with insight. As he develops tranquillity in tandem with insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.

"Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.

"Whoever — monk or nun — declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of these four paths."




where to find a copy of this sutta in pali?

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Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Post by chownah » Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:31 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:34 pm
I don't see anywhere in MN110 https://suttacentral.net/mn110/en/sujato that refers to "Right View".
And how does a good person have the view of a good person?
Kathañca, bhikkhave, sappuriso sappurisadiṭṭhi hoti?
https://suttacentral.net/mn110/en/sujato#22.1
I think that doodoot is suggesting that it does appear there by description and not by it being explicityly named. Does this text describe right view?:
And how does a good person have the view of a good person? It’s when a good person has such a view: ‘There is meaning in giving, sacrifice, and offerings. There are fruits and results of good and bad deeds. There is an afterlife. There are duties to mother and father. There are beings reborn spontaneously. And there are ascetics and brahmins who are well attained and practiced, and who describe the afterlife after realizing it with their own insight.’ That’s how a good person has the view of a good person.
chownah

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Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Post by chownah » Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:36 am

SarathW wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:20 am
the person on the path to stream-entry
Agree.
Aren't we all of us in this forum at this stage and enjoying the Path?
Say If I am traveling from New York to LA when I will be in New York?
If "on the path to stream entry" is meant to describe a noble person then I guess that person should have a "true" understanding of the four noble truths if the criteria for noble is the one I just posted to you yesterday. Do you think that all of us here have a "true" understanding of the four noble truths?
chownah

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Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Post by mikenz66 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:55 am

chownah wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:31 am
mikenz66 wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:34 pm
I don't see anywhere in MN110 https://suttacentral.net/mn110/en/sujato that refers to "Right View".
And how does a good person have the view of a good person?
Kathañca, bhikkhave, sappuriso sappurisadiṭṭhi hoti?
https://suttacentral.net/mn110/en/sujato#22.1
I think that doodoot is suggesting that it does appear there by description and not by it being explicityly named. Does this text describe right view?:
And how does a good person have the view of a good person? It’s when a good person has such a view: ‘There is meaning in giving, sacrifice, and offerings. There are fruits and results of good and bad deeds. There is an afterlife. There are duties to mother and father. There are beings reborn spontaneously. And there are ascetics and brahmins who are well attained and practiced, and who describe the afterlife after realizing it with their own insight.’ That’s how a good person has the view of a good person.
chownah
This view of a good person does not seem to be how right view is described in most suttas, such as MN9: https://suttacentral.net/mn9

Not that there is anything wrong with it, of course.

:heart:
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Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Post by retrofuturist » Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:30 am

Greetings Sarath,
SarathW wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:20 am
Aren't we all of us in this forum at this stage and enjoying the Path?
Some may be on the path, others may be up the garden path.

Kind regards.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Post by chownah » Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:38 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:55 am


This view of a good person does not seem to be how right view is described in most suttas, such as MN9: https://suttacentral.net/mn9

Not that there is anything wrong with it, of course.
Here is what it says about the views of a good person in mn110:
And how does a good person have the view of a good person? It’s when a good person has such a view: ‘There is meaning in giving, sacrifice, and offerings. There are fruits and results of good and bad deeds. There is an afterlife. There are duties to mother and father. There are beings reborn spontaneously. And there are ascetics and brahmins who are well attained and practiced, and who describe the afterlife after realizing it with their own insight.’ That’s how a good person has the view of a good person.

Here is what it says about right view with effluents in mn117:
"And what is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are contemplatives & brahmans who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions.
I don't see how anyone could not see a similarity bordering on congruence between the view of a good person and right view with effluents.....this is what doodoot is pointing at I think.....it seems clear tome that the view of a good person is the same thing as right view with effluents.
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Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Post by mikenz66 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:22 pm

chownah wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:38 am
I don't see how anyone could not see a similarity bordering on congruence between the view of a good person and right view with effluents.....this is what doodoot is pointing at I think.....it seems clear tome that the view of a good person is the same thing as right view with effluents.
Noone is disputing the similarity of the description. And there are many other suttas with similar descriptions. The point was simply that only MN117 describes this as a second kind of "right view".

:heart:
Mike

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Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Post by SarathW » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:41 pm

"And what is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions? '
Buddha did not reject the other religions who teach high morality etc.
The only thing he said was, they are with effluents and sliding with merits hence not lead to final liberation.
It is very similar to the precepts observe by other religions.
Only a Sotapanna can observe precepts without clinging to rites and rituals but still, they are praiseworthy.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Post by retrofuturist » Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:22 pm

Greetings Mike, all,
mikenz66 wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:22 pm
The point was simply that only MN117 describes this as a second kind of "right view".
Not so much a second kind of Right View per se but a separation of those factors that lead to the Noble Eightfold Path / the kamma that ends kamma... and those factors that lead to good kamma / heavenly realms. Note also that what tends to differentiate these sets of factors is some variety of implicit self-view within those factors that aren't transcendent.

Perhaps it's no coincidence then that MN 110 describes such non-transcendent non-path views as "the view of a good person"

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Post by chownah » Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:06 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:22 pm
chownah wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:38 am
I don't see how anyone could not see a similarity bordering on congruence between the view of a good person and right view with effluents.....this is what doodoot is pointing at I think.....it seems clear tome that the view of a good person is the same thing as right view with effluents.
Noone is disputing the similarity of the description. And there are many other suttas with similar descriptions. The point was simply that only MN117 describes this as a second kind of "right view".

:heart:
Mike
I would be very interested in seeing some of the other suttas....can you bring some links?

Also, I don't see how mn117 divides right view up in a different way than mn9......it seems to me that both mn117 and mn9 present right view as it is held by different people at different times but perhaps I am missing something which indicates a difference and would appreciate your posting if you see a difference. I think that each person holds slightly different aspects of right view (if they hold any at all)....they appreciate some aspects but not others.....I think this is what is being taught in mn9 as well as the fact that the "true teaching" can be arrived at without holding all of the aspects of right view I guess.

chownah

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